On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:29 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >> JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:That is fair - yes there are states that behave this way. I thought you were criticizing the religion itself.
JohnOhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative of >> Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people that >> causes this sort of extremism.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that >entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in this case >and in others Saudi Arabia etc.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:of
On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:29 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >> JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
JohnOhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative
thatIslam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
casecauses this sort of extremism.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that >entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in this
and in others Saudi Arabia etc.That is fair - yes there are states that behave this way. I thought you were criticizing the religion itself.
I do not hold religious convictions, I am concerned that the backlash against all Muslims as a result of the actions of a tiny minority may do far more damage than the extremists have done.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in this case and in others Saudi Arabia etc.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote: >http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
JohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people that causes this sort of extremism.
Tony
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative
of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
that causes this sort of extremism.
wrote:I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at their core, as do most religions. That is nothing to do with whether religious belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good advice as does the Bible. The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems undertsand and respect that.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote: >>>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
JohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative
of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity is no >better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts of the Bible >they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
wrote:You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are unlikely to do so.
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
JohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people >>>> that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity is no >>>better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts of the >>>Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >>>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at their
core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the Abrahamic >religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about fear and >subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good
advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The >extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even though the >Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an enlightenment and >now Christians ignore the parts they find distasteful. Islam is still to go >through such a process and until that happens you'll find them killing >apostates because they believe they are doing the word of their god, as >commanded in their holy book and the Hadith.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
JohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people >>>>> that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity is >>>>no better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts of >>>>the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >>>>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your >>>>needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at
their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the Abrahamic >>religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about fear and >>subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good
advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The >>extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the >>moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even though the >>Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an enlightenment
and now Christians ignore the parts they find distasteful. Islam is still >>to go through such a process and until that happens you'll find them >>killing apostates because they believe they are doing the word of their >>god, as commanded in their holy book and the Hadith.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are unlikely
to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
Those that are prone to external
influences (and most are to some degree) will find something to follow -
and their behaviour is their own doing.
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
JohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity. >>>>> It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people >>>>> that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity is >>>>no better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts of >>>>the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >>>>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your >>>>needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at
their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the Abrahamic >>religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about fear and >>subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good
advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The >>extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the >>moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even though the >>Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an enlightenment >>and now Christians ignore the parts they find distasteful. Islam is still >>to go through such a process and until that happens you'll find them >>killing apostates because they believe they are doing the word of their >>god, as commanded in their holy book and the Hadith.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are unlikely
to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
I agree with that. Remember that religion comes from man too.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
People do evil things in the name of religion thinking they are doing good things.
Those that are prone to external
influences (and most are to some degree) will find something to follow - and their behaviour is their own doing.
Of source it is. That doesn't mean that the evil preachings of religion doesn't inspire people to do terrible things.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
JohnO wrote:
On Sunday, 28 February 2016 09:38:12 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity. >> >>>>> It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some
people that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity >> >>>>is no better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts >> >>>>of the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize >> >>>>your needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at
their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the
Abrahamic religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about
fear and subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good >> >>> advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The
extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the
moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even though >> >>the Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an
enlightenment and now Christians ignore the parts they find
distasteful. Islam is still to go through such a process and until that >> >>happens you'll find them killing apostates because they believe they
are doing the word of their god, as commanded in their holy book and
the Hadith. --
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >> >>creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your
needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are
unlikely to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
I agree with that. Remember that religion comes from man too.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
People do evil things in the name of religion thinking they are doing
good things.
They'll always find something to rationalise their behaviour. If not religion something else.
I'm not convinced that's the case when the preachings of their religion are so specific. Do you think women would be treated as poorly in the middle
east if it weren't for religious teachings?
Do you think people would be as
eager to kill themselves and other if not for the promise of a life after death? I don't think those ideas would arise without some form of superstition to support them.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
On Monday, 29 February 2016 08:51:13 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
JohnO wrote:
On Sunday, 28 February 2016 09:38:12 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of
Christianity. It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the
evil in some people that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion.
Christianity is no better, except that Christians have learned to
ignore the parts of the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and
maximize your needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good
at their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the
Abrahamic religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about
fear and subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of
good advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The
extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the
moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even
though the Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an
enlightenment and now Christians ignore the parts they find
distasteful. Islam is still to go through such a process and until
that happens you'll find them killing apostates because they believe
they are doing the word of their god, as commanded in their holy
book and the Hadith. --
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and
maximize your needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are
unlikely to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
I agree with that. Remember that religion comes from man too.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
People do evil things in the name of religion thinking they are doing
good things.
They'll always find something to rationalise their behaviour. If not
religion something else.
I'm not convinced that's the case when the preachings of their religion
are so specific. Do you think women would be treated as poorly in the
middle east if it weren't for religious teachings?
Yep.
On Sunday, 28 February 2016 09:38:12 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some
people that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion. Christianity
is no better, except that Christians have learned to ignore the parts
of the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize
your needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good at
their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the
Abrahamic religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about
fear and subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of good
advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems
undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The
extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the
moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even though
the Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an
enlightenment and now Christians ignore the parts they find
distasteful. Islam is still to go through such a process and until that
happens you'll find them killing apostates because they believe they
are doing the word of their god, as commanded in their holy book and
the Hadith. --
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."
creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your
needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are
unlikely to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
I agree with that. Remember that religion comes from man too.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
People do evil things in the name of religion thinking they are doing
good things.
They'll always find something to rationalise their behaviour. If not
religion something else.
JohnO wrote:As JohnO said and I have said previously on this subject bad guys will find an excuse to do anything they want, religion is just a convenient excuse but there are many others. Men oppress women an the name of religion but they would do it anyway.
On Monday, 29 February 2016 08:51:13 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
JohnO wrote:
On Sunday, 28 February 2016 09:38:12 UTC+13, Allistar wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
Allistar <me@hiddenaddress.com> wrote:
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
JohnOhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.html
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative of Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of
Christianity. It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the >>> >> >>>>> evil in some people that causes this sort of extremism.
Until you understand the fundamentals of this religion.
Christianity is no better, except that Christians have learned to >>> >> >>>>ignore the parts of the Bible they find distasteful.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and
maximize your needs.
I think that is an over-simplification. Both religions have good
at their core, as do most religions.
I strongly disagree on that point, especially in regards to the
Abrahamic religions. The first few of the 10 commandments are about >>> >> >>fear and subservience. Neither religions have good at their core.
That is nothing to do with whether religious
belief is sensible or not. The Quran provides much in the way of
good advice as does the Bible.
And much in the way of bad advice.
The Quran also forbids, explicitly much of what
the extremists believe they are charged with doing - most Moslems >>> >> >>> undertsand and respect that. Tony
And yet it also commands them to do much of what they are doing. The >>> >> >>extremists have a most honest reading of their holy book than the
moderates.
You don't see Christians stoning children for disobedience even
though the Bible commands it. That's because we have gone through an >>> >> >>enlightenment and now Christians ignore the parts they find
distasteful. Islam is still to go through such a process and until
that happens you'll find them killing apostates because they believe >>> >> >>they are doing the word of their god, as commanded in their holy
book and the Hadith. --
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his
needs." creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and
maximize your needs.
You and I have debated this before now. We do not agree and are
unlikely to do so.
I believe all bad (evil if you prefer) comes from man.
I agree with that. Remember that religion comes from man too.
Good or evil begets
religion, not the other way round.
People do evil things in the name of religion thinking they are doing >>> >> good things.
They'll always find something to rationalise their behaviour. If not
religion something else.
I'm not convinced that's the case when the preachings of their religion
are so specific. Do you think women would be treated as poorly in the
middle east if it weren't for religious teachings?
Yep.
(Most) religion is an oppressor of women.
--
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." >creates the incentive to minimize your abilities and maximize your needs.
On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:29 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative
of
Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
that
causes this sort of extremism.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in this case and in others Saudi Arabia etc.
"JohnO" <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote in message news:42b1a070-160a-4471-96df-6945483a8c09@googlegroups.com...
On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:29 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more representative >> of
Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
that
causes this sort of extremism.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in this case and in others Saudi Arabia etc.
A bloody good argument for keeping religion out of government JohnO. Now if only we could remove politics from government life would be so much better for everyone.
Pooh
On Monday, 29 February 2016 11:56:12 UTC+13, Pooh wrote:
"JohnO" <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:42b1a070-160a-4471-96df-6945483a8c09@googlegroups.com...
On Friday, 26 February 2016 10:28:29 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com
wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3461509/Iranian-media-outlets-add-430-000-bounty-Satanic-Verses-author-Salman-Rushdie-s-head.htmlJohnO
We may agree on many things(?) but not this.
The idiots that follow this sort of fanaticism are no more
representative
of
Islam than the Ku Klux Klan are of Christianity.
It is not the religion that is to blame, it is the evil in some people
that
causes this sort of extremism.
Tony
Tony I'm not disputing that most Muslims would not go along with this.
The problem I have is that there is state institutional backing that
entrenches the worst aspects of Islamism - the government of Iran in
this
case and in others Saudi Arabia etc.
A bloody good argument for keeping religion out of government JohnO. Now
if
only we could remove politics from government life would be so much
better
for everyone.
Pooh
Sadly, I think freedom from totalitarianism requires we put up with democratically elected fuckwits.
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