http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor
results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921 >>
National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor
results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:26:12 +1200, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor
results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

Rich the fact remains that of all the political parties, and even
allowing for the ructions of recent days, National is streets ahead of
all the others. As in the last 12 years or so this reflects not on
National's dominance but on the flakiness of all the others. NZF were
gone in 2011 but came back. Labour's numbers have done for Andrew
Little in recent days and David Cunliffe, Davis Shearer and Phill Goff
during their years in opposition since 2008.

As with any new leader Jacinter Adern offers potential but not when
elected 6 weeks before a general election (similar to Mike Moore in
1990).

The fact remains that National dominate the polls with their problem
being that they cannot get the few percentage points needed to get an
absolute majority of the party vote. This is a reflection on Labour
and the Greens not being so incompetent that between them they cant
dislodge National. In recent days the resurgence in Labour popularity
is very weak because they have not captured support from National but recaptured support from the Greens - and therefore this is an
own-goal.

We have an election campaign to come. National go into this with
seasoned and experienced leadership. Labour go into this with a green
leader (no pun intended) and the Greens are in an unstable state of
flux. NZF, as always, are what-about-me bystanders. Gareth is no
threat with TOP being another vanity party like NZF and Internet-Mana
before it.

National will win by default - not because they deserve to but because
the others lack credibility. Hopefully Jacinter and Labour will still
be around in 2020 and have amassed the credibility to dislodge
National with a Labour-dominated (not just Labour-lead) government.
Hopefully.


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 21:27:10 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:26:12 +1200, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor >>>> results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

Rich the fact remains that of all the political parties, and even
allowing for the ructions of recent days, National is streets ahead of
all the others.

In political spin yes - but in real results no - see for example http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/the-rising-tide-sucks-us-down.html which is another comment on the release of statistics showing that we
are now losing productivity, and that the majority ar worse off under
NAtional

As in the last 12 years or so this reflects not on
National's dominance but on the flakiness of all the others.

Dominance in spin and dirty tricks yes - the flakiness is pure spin.

NZF were
gone in 2011 but came back. Labour's numbers have done for Andrew
Little in recent days and David Cunliffe, Davis Shearer and Phill Goff
during their years in opposition since 2008.

As with any new leader Jacinter Adern offers potential but not when
elected 6 weeks before a general election (similar to Mike Moore in
1990).

Not even Mike Moore got such a quick lift in polling - it was more
like 2% to 3%, and over a shorter period. Linked to the huge change in
party preference (and the change in the silly popularity polls for
prime minister) this shows that National are continuing a steady but
fairly slow decline, but that results are more volatile than they
were. Some of the lift in polling came from NZ First - if they get too
low it may be even harder for National to form a government.

The fact remains that National dominate the polls with their problem
being that they cannot get the few percentage points needed to get an >absolute majority of the party vote. This is a reflection on Labour
and the Greens not being so incompetent that between them they cant
dislodge National.

No, it is a result of National having maintained their percentage of
votes only through cannibalising the votes for their support parties;
now that has lkargely gone we are seeing the natural decline for what
it is - a governmetn hobvering on the border of incompetence -
certainly there are no long term results that they are able to poiont
to that will leave New Zealand in a better position than theye
position they inherited.

In recent days the resurgence in Labour popularity
is very weak because they have not captured support from National but >recaptured support from the Greens - and therefore this is an
own-goal.

Yes I can understand why you would regard an increase of 9% in
indicative party vote for Labour as "very weak" - but you don;t really
believe your own hopeful spin do you?

We have an election campaign to come. National go into this with
seasoned and experienced leadership.

No they don't. Bill English has failed once and seems set to fail
again. As finance Minister they made a pretence of his beinbg reliable
- which was really a result of low risk taking and following Treasury
advice without using New Zealand's initially internationally strong
position for the good of New Zealand. Since he has become PM, the
level of trust is starting to frift away as he is seen as having lied
to New Zealand - or if you want to be generous at least misleading.

Labour go into this with a green
leader (no pun intended) and the Greens are in an unstable state of
flux.

Rubbish - they are a party that more than any other works by consensus
- not like National where decisions are always made by a small group.
The loss of one Co-leader has been experienced before, and did not
harm them; this time is no different. You just don;t understand a
collegial way of working . . .

NZF, as always, are what-about-me bystanders. Gareth is no
threat with TOP being another vanity party like NZF and Internet-Mana
before it.

National will win by default - not because they deserve to but because
the others lack credibility. Hopefully Jacinter and Labour will still
be around in 2020 and have amassed the credibility to dislodge
National with a Labour-dominated (not just Labour-lead) government. >Hopefully.

I appreciate that you are expressing hope - certainly there appears to
be increasing concern within National - they are about to u-turn on
light rail to the airport to follow Labour / Green - look for more
election bribes - but also look for increasing cynicism as it is
realised that National have not delivered on the by-election promises
in Northland, and the messages that they have presided over a lower
standard of living for the majority of people.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 11/08/2017 4:26 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor
results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

Rich don't you realise yet that we all know that when you say 'There are
some that believe' what you mean is I'm going to lie even worse than I
normally do. Though in this case I have to support your hypothesis
because that's the general consensus amongst those who post on the Green party's facebook page. In fact when you point out that supporting a
fraudster isn't doing their image any good they tend to do good
imitations of you in that ignore the evidence and deny the Greens can
die. Like you they're in denial that the left can do any wrong. I put it
down to excessive use of pot or drugs.

Pooh

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 11/08/2017 10:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 21:27:10 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:26:12 +1200, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it >>>>> is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green >>>>> government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor >>>>> results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are

going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

Rich the fact remains that of all the political parties, and even
allowing for the ructions of recent days, National is streets ahead of
all the others.

In political spin yes - but in real results no - see for example http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/the-rising-tide-sucks-us-down.html which is another comment on the release of statistics showing that we
are now losing productivity, and that the majority ar worse off under NAtional

As in the last 12 years or so this reflects not on
National's dominance but on the flakiness of all the others.

Dominance in spin and dirty tricks yes - the flakiness is pure spin.

NZF were
gone in 2011 but came back. Labour's numbers have done for Andrew
Little in recent days and David Cunliffe, Davis Shearer and Phill Goff
during their years in opposition since 2008.

As with any new leader Jacinter Adern offers potential but not when
elected 6 weeks before a general election (similar to Mike Moore in
1990).

Not even Mike Moore got such a quick lift in polling - it was more
like 2% to 3%, and over a shorter period. Linked to the huge change in
party preference (and the change in the silly popularity polls for
prime minister) this shows that National are continuing a steady but
fairly slow decline, but that results are more volatile than they
were. Some of the lift in polling came from NZ First - if they get too
low it may be even harder for National to form a government.

The fact remains that National dominate the polls with their problem
being that they cannot get the few percentage points needed to get an
absolute majority of the party vote. This is a reflection on Labour
and the Greens not being so incompetent that between them they cant
dislodge National.

No, it is a result of National having maintained their percentage of
votes only through cannibalising the votes for their support parties;
now that has lkargely gone we are seeing the natural decline for what
it is - a governmetn hobvering on the border of incompetence -
certainly there are no long term results that they are able to poiont
to that will leave New Zealand in a better position than theye
position they inherited.

In recent days the resurgence in Labour popularity
is very weak because they have not captured support from National but
recaptured support from the Greens - and therefore this is an
own-goal.

Yes I can understand why you would regard an increase of 9% in
indicative party vote for Labour as "very weak" - but you don;t really believe your own hopeful spin do you?

We have an election campaign to come. National go into this with
seasoned and experienced leadership.

No they don't. Bill English has failed once and seems set to fail
again. As finance Minister they made a pretence of his beinbg reliable
- which was really a result of low risk taking and following Treasury
advice without using New Zealand's initially internationally strong
position for the good of New Zealand. Since he has become PM, the
level of trust is starting to frift away as he is seen as having lied
to New Zealand - or if you want to be generous at least misleading.

Labour go into this with a green
leader (no pun intended) and the Greens are in an unstable state of
flux.

Rubbish - they are a party that more than any other works by consensus
- not like National where decisions are always made by a small group.
The loss of one Co-leader has been experienced before, and did not
harm them; this time is no different. You just don;t understand a
collegial way of working . . .

BULLSHIT! Adern has already reigned in her attack dog in public and the
Greens are so collegial they fired two MP's who pointed out that Turei
was toxic. They in particular are looking more and more like a three
ring circus populated by clowns!

NZF, as always, are what-about-me bystanders. Gareth is no
threat with TOP being another vanity party like NZF and Internet-Mana
before it.

National will win by default - not because they deserve to but because
the others lack credibility. Hopefully Jacinter and Labour will still
be around in 2020 and have amassed the credibility to dislodge
National with a Labour-dominated (not just Labour-lead) government.
Hopefully.

I appreciate that you are expressing hope - certainly there appears to
be increasing concern within National - they are about to u-turn on
light rail to the airport to follow Labour / Green - look for more
election bribes - but also look for increasing cynicism as it is
realised that National have not delivered on the by-election promises
in Northland, and the messages that they have presided over a lower
standard of living for the majority of people.

The hope is all yours Rich. But then it along with denial has always
been your stock in trade.

BTW was it you who put Turei and Hager up for New Zealander of the year?

Pooh

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On 11/08/2017 12:00 p.m., JohnO wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921 >>
National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it
is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green
government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor
results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are

going to be involved in any government in the near future.

Hell there's speculation they won't even be in parliament after
September. you're right about Rich failing to comprehend what's
happening as he's not even aware that Labour has been distancing
themselves from the Fraud party of Aotearoa. If it happens. Good riddance :)

Pooh

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 22:50:07 +1200, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 21:27:10 +1200, Crash <nogood@dontbother.invalid>
wrote:

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 16:26:12 +1200, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 10 Aug 2017 17:00:55 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> >>>wrote:

On Friday, 11 August 2017 11:09:22 UTC+12, Rich80105 wrote:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11901921

National hide behind misleading statistics and "averages" that they
know are misleading.

Looking behind the headlines that are all NAtional want us to see, it >>>>> is clear that a large number of people are worse off under this
government, but what has not been well known previously is that our
productivity is also down.

National are yet again leaving a huge mess for the next Labour/Green >>>>> government to try to put right - and despite the reality of their poor >>>>> results, National are talking further tax cuts for their wealthy
backers!

I guess Dickbot hasn't been following the news if it thinks the Greens are going to be involved in any government in the near future.

There are some that believe there will be a Labour -only government,
but I am confident that the Green Party will retain much the same
number of seats as for this parliament, and possibly more.

Your comment doesnt address the article - avoiding that is probably
the most important aim of your contribution.

Rich the fact remains that of all the political parties, and even
allowing for the ructions of recent days, National is streets ahead of
all the others.

In political spin yes - but in real results no - see for example >http://norightturn.blogspot.co.nz/2017/08/the-rising-tide-sucks-us-down.html >which is another comment on the release of statistics showing that we
are now losing productivity, and that the majority ar worse off under >NAtional

So how come, if the article is correct, National so far ahead in the
polls?

As in the last 12 years or so this reflects not on
National's dominance but on the flakiness of all the others.

Dominance in spin and dirty tricks yes - the flakiness is pure spin.

NZF were
gone in 2011 but came back. Labour's numbers have done for Andrew
Little in recent days and David Cunliffe, Davis Shearer and Phill Goff >>during their years in opposition since 2008.

As with any new leader Jacinter Adern offers potential but not when
elected 6 weeks before a general election (similar to Mike Moore in
1990).

Not even Mike Moore got such a quick lift in polling - it was more
like 2% to 3%, and over a shorter period. Linked to the huge change in
party preference (and the change in the silly popularity polls for
prime minister) this shows that National are continuing a steady but
fairly slow decline, but that results are more volatile than they
were. Some of the lift in polling came from NZ First - if they get too
low it may be even harder for National to form a government.

But with National polling more than 45%, Labour need assistance from
the unstable Greens and NZF. If I were National I would play the
point that the only way to get a stable government is to party-vote
National. All other options point to a highly inexperienced Labour
supported by the unpredictable NZF and the red-dominated Greens.

The fact remains that National dominate the polls with their problem
being that they cannot get the few percentage points needed to get an >>absolute majority of the party vote. This is a reflection on Labour
and the Greens not being so incompetent that between them they cant >>dislodge National.

No, it is a result of National having maintained their percentage of
votes only through cannibalising the votes for their support parties;
now that has lkargely gone we are seeing the natural decline for what
it is - a governmetn hobvering on the border of incompetence -
certainly there are no long term results that they are able to poiont
to that will leave New Zealand in a better position than theye
position they inherited.

So National sit on 47%. All their partner parties (Maori, ACT, UNF)
are in Parliament solely because they have electorate MPs. All three
partner parties combined got 4% support - so you claim National are
where they are today by cannibalising that 4%? Really?

In recent days the resurgence in Labour popularity
is very weak because they have not captured support from National but >>recaptured support from the Greens - and therefore this is an
own-goal.

Yes I can understand why you would regard an increase of 9% in
indicative party vote for Labour as "very weak" - but you don;t really >believe your own hopeful spin do you?

That 9% came from where? It needed to come from National to make a
significant difference. It did not.

We have an election campaign to come. National go into this with
seasoned and experienced leadership.

No they don't. Bill English has failed once and seems set to fail
again. As finance Minister they made a pretence of his beinbg reliable
- which was really a result of low risk taking and following Treasury
advice without using New Zealand's initially internationally strong
position for the good of New Zealand. Since he has become PM, the
level of trust is starting to frift away as he is seen as having lied
to New Zealand - or if you want to be generous at least misleading.

That is simply incorrect. National's level of popularity has not
significantly changed in recent days, months, years. The polls show
continued support for National.

Labour go into this with a green
leader (no pun intended) and the Greens are in an unstable state of
flux.

Rubbish - they are a party that more than any other works by consensus
- not like National where decisions are always made by a small group.
The loss of one Co-leader has been experienced before, and did not
harm them; this time is no different. You just don;t understand a
collegial way of working . . .

The Greens party actions of the last week have been far from collegial
- the ructions of expelling to of their MPs from caucus, and the
belated resignation from Turei demonstrate that the party was far from collegial.

NZF, as always, are what-about-me bystanders. Gareth is no
threat with TOP being another vanity party like NZF and Internet-Mana >>before it.

National will win by default - not because they deserve to but because
the others lack credibility. Hopefully Jacinter and Labour will still
be around in 2020 and have amassed the credibility to dislodge
National with a Labour-dominated (not just Labour-lead) government. >>Hopefully.

I appreciate that you are expressing hope

Where on earth do you see 'hope' in my posting? I have consistently
rated National the best of a bad bunch, popular not because they are
governing well but because the alternative is worse.

- certainly there appears to
be increasing concern within National - they are about to u-turn on
light rail to the airport to follow Labour / Green - look for more
election bribes - but also look for increasing cynicism as it is
realised that National have not delivered on the by-election promises
in Northland, and the messages that they have presided over a lower
standard of living for the majority of people.

None of which has impacted on National's popular support. With all
this fodder as you outline, neither Labour, the Greens or NZF can
produce what it takes to take popular support away from National. Why
is this?


--
Crash McBash

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)