Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson >>>helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the >>>risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

How exactly do you think anybody can provide a character reference for someone >they have never met Rich?

Putting a case to the court may be appropriate on behalf of a family but not on
the basis of character; it would have to be something else.

I don't compare this to the Trevor Williamson case because they are very >different. This one smacks of laziness or lack of thought!
Tony

On 6/02/2016 2:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

Of course you are right again Rich - all this poor youth did was lie to >police about a speeding offence, clocked at a mere 210 kph, claiming his >vehicle had been stolen. An exemplary young man who any MP would provide
a reference for, on Crown letter head, without actually knowing the >individual. Perfectly sensible everyday practice. Like you, I can't >understand what anyone sees wrong with this at all. Of course, if it had
been a National MP things would be a little different. You'd have worn
out your fingertips and keyboard telling all and sundry what evil
bastards the nats are, how John Key is the devil incarnate, and how this
is the end of the National party.

Liberty <liberty48@live.com> wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:09:17 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference,
True. But the MP normally personally knows the person.
Just knowing the family is a cop out .
As this persons son is a bit of a dipstick with a second offence
It is also debatable with Mallard court history. Is he suitable to
give a character reference.
What justification was there to use a Labour party letter head.
Implied character reference of a non entity. How wrong is that ?
This scandal is so wrong on so many levels Mallard should resign.

I think you responded to me instead of Rich, by accident of course.
I certainly do not think that character references are a common part of the job
of an MP unless they know the person well.
Tony

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 21:32:38 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 7:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:40:23 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 5:43 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:34:55 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>

On 6/02/2016 2:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:11:49 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>

On 6/02/2016 10:43 a.m., Liberty wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports

loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson >>>>>>>>>> helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but >>>>>>>>>> paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National >>>>>>>>>> yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to >>>>>>>>>> do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

Yeah. That's a strange one. Fair enough for an MP to advocate for a >>>>>>>>> constituent, or anybody really. But Mallard didn't even know this kid.

"I knew his family. Knew of but didn't know [the man] personally," >>>>>>>> Mallard said.

"Probably three or four families would approach me for assistance in >>>>>>>> criminal matters for each letter I provide."

Community leaders, such as business people and clergy, have long >>>>>>>> provided character references to the country's courts, he said. >>>>>>>>
"I probably provide a character reference once every three or four >>>>>>>> years for courts. Similarly for banks. Letting agencies a bit more >>>>>>>> frequently."

Saying he did not know the kid is only partly true. He is however a >>>>>>>> constituent and Mallard knows his family.

And his offense was hardly a minor misdemeanor. Mallard needs a >>>>>>>>> walloping for this one. It's different than Williamson - who poked his
nose in during a police investigation- but the outcome should be the >>>>>>>>>same.

The difference is very significant - a letter to the judge before >>>>>>>> sentencing is quite different from trying to influence an
investigation. The outcome should, and I am sure will be, quite >>>>>>>> different from the Williamson case.

Of course it is significantly different. But it doesn't negate the fact >>>>>>> that Mallard was way out of line too.

How was it out of line, Fred?

Advocating for an offender who he doesn't know is ludicrous. This was a >>>>> major offence. Mallard himself referred to the number of character
references he provided - how the hell can he provide a character
reference for someone he doesn't know! Don't be your usual silly self >>>>> and try and defend the indefensible simply because he's a Labour member. >>>>

He knows the family - and will know the circumstances of the offender, >>>> and the extent to which a conviction on all charges could affectt he
young person's future. Mallard was professionally invovled with
troubled outh in his occupation before becoming an MP - he would be
well aware of the impact, or lack of it, that a submission regarding
sentencing is likely to make; but knowledge of support from family and >>>> community can make a difference to the appropriate sentence. I
certainly do not believe a judge would be unduly swayed by such a
letter, and it is certainly nothing like interference in an
investigation. .

You see nothing wrong with giving a reference for someone you do not >>>know. I would never do that - I'm amazed that you would.

It depends on what level you know someone. You can make judgements
about some people fromwhat you have been told by people you trust,
(such as teachers, social workers, priests or ministers of religion,
even from your own family), from seeing them occasionally, or knowing
them in the past, or you can form opinions about suitable sentencing
from quite meagre information, such as news reports. There are in fact >>plenty of judgements made in nz.general on teh basis of a news report
- as is the case here. The reality is that an MP will often know >>information about people in their electorate without being able to say
that they "know" the person, but which are enough for them to provide >>useful information to a judge considering suitable sentencing. After
all, many in nz,general support the work of the Senseless Sentencing
Trust, who must often not know teh people they comment on at all.

Rich you can form judgements from all sorts of sources but for goodness sake >you surely cannot provide a character reference for someone you have never met.

That would be a failure of governance or professional management in a corporate
environment.

I am not saying that what the MP did in this case was in the best
interests of justice - we just do not know that. What I do know is
that there are no laws or ethical reasons why any person should not
express their opinions. Submissions to judges may change nothing, but
the bnetter informed a judge is the better decisions they may make.

Tony

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:11:49 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 10:43 a.m., Liberty wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

Yeah. That's a strange one. Fair enough for an MP to advocate for a >>constituent, or anybody really. But Mallard didn't even know this kid.

"I knew his family. Knew of but didn't know [the man] personally,"
Mallard said.

"Probably three or four families would approach me for assistance in
criminal matters for each letter I provide."

Community leaders, such as business people and clergy, have long
provided character references to the country's courts, he said.

"I probably provide a character reference once every three or four
years for courts. Similarly for banks. Letting agencies a bit more frequently."

Saying he did not know the kid is only partly true. He is however a constituent and Mallard knows his family.

And his offense was hardly a minor misdemeanor. Mallard needs a
walloping for this one. It's different than Williamson - who poked his
nose in during a police investigation- but the outcome should be the same.

The difference is very significant - a letter to the judge before
sentencing is quite different from trying to influence an
investigation. The outcome should, and I am sure will be, quite
different from the Williamson case.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:38:54 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 21:32:38 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 7:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:40:23 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 5:43 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:34:55 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>

On 6/02/2016 2:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:11:49 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 10:43 a.m., Liberty wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. >>>>>>>>>>> supports a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over >>>>>>>>>>> Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. >>>>>>>>>>> but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from >>>>>>>>>>> National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless >>>>>>>>>>> to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not >>>>>>>>>>> take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

Yeah. That's a strange one. Fair enough for an MP to advocate for >>>>>>>>>> a
constituent, or anybody really. But Mallard didn't even know this >>>>>>>>>> kid.

"I knew his family. Knew of but didn't know [the man] personally," >>>>>>>>> Mallard said.

"Probably three or four families would approach me for assistance >>>>>>>>> in
criminal matters for each letter I provide."

Community leaders, such as business people and clergy, have long >>>>>>>>> provided character references to the country's courts, he said. >>>>>>>>>
"I probably provide a character reference once every three or four >>>>>>>>> years for courts. Similarly for banks. Letting agencies a bit more >>>>>>>>> frequently."

Saying he did not know the kid is only partly true. He is however >>>>>>>>> a
constituent and Mallard knows his family.

And his offense was hardly a minor misdemeanor. Mallard needs a >>>>>>>>>> walloping for this one. It's different than Williamson - who >>>>>>>>>> poked his
nose in during a police investigation- but the outcome should be >>>>>>>>>> the
same.

The difference is very significant - a letter to the judge before >>>>>>>>> sentencing is quite different from trying to influence an
investigation. The outcome should, and I am sure will be, quite >>>>>>>>> different from the Williamson case.

Of course it is significantly different. But it doesn't negate the >>>>>>>> fact
that Mallard was way out of line too.

How was it out of line, Fred?

Advocating for an offender who he doesn't know is ludicrous. This was >>>>>> a
major offence. Mallard himself referred to the number of character >>>>>> references he provided - how the hell can he provide a character
reference for someone he doesn't know! Don't be your usual silly self >>>>>> and try and defend the indefensible simply because he's a Labour
member.

He knows the family - and will know the circumstances of the offender, >>>>> and the extent to which a conviction on all charges could affectt he >>>>> young person's future. Mallard was professionally invovled with
troubled outh in his occupation before becoming an MP - he would be
well aware of the impact, or lack of it, that a submission regarding >>>>> sentencing is likely to make; but knowledge of support from family and >>>>> community can make a difference to the appropriate sentence. I
certainly do not believe a judge would be unduly swayed by such a
letter, and it is certainly nothing like interference in an
investigation. .

You see nothing wrong with giving a reference for someone you do not >>>>know. I would never do that - I'm amazed that you would.

It depends on what level you know someone. You can make judgements
about some people fromwhat you have been told by people you trust,
(such as teachers, social workers, priests or ministers of religion,
even from your own family), from seeing them occasionally, or knowing >>>them in the past, or you can form opinions about suitable sentencing
from quite meagre information, such as news reports. There are in fact >>>plenty of judgements made in nz.general on teh basis of a news report
- as is the case here. The reality is that an MP will often know >>>information about people in their electorate without being able to say >>>that they "know" the person, but which are enough for them to provide >>>useful information to a judge considering suitable sentencing. After
all, many in nz,general support the work of the Senseless Sentencing >>>Trust, who must often not know teh people they comment on at all.

Rich you can form judgements from all sorts of sources but for goodness >>sake
you surely cannot provide a character reference for someone you have never >>met.

Already answered in relation to your previous response. Sensible
sentencing appear to make submissions on cases without knowing either
the victims or the person convicted, or hearing the evidence. We do
not know how much Mallard knew about theis person, or what he said.

That would be a failure of governance or professional management in a >>corporate
environment.

Businesses usually have strict rules about testimonials,for good
reason. This is quite different.

I am not saying that what the MP did in this case was in the best >>>interests of justice - we just do not know that. What I do know is
that there are no laws or ethical reasons why any person should not >>>express their opinions. Submissions to judges may change nothing, but
the bnetter informed a judge is the better decisions they may make.

Tony

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:09:17 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference,
True. But the MP normally personally knows the person.
Just knowing the family is a cop out .
As this persons son is a bit of a dipstick with a second offence
It is also debatable with Mallard court history. Is he suitable to
give a character reference.
What justification was there to use a Labour party letter head.
Implied character reference of a non entity. How wrong is that ?
This scandal is so wrong on so many levels Mallard should resign.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:09:17 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>>loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson >>>>helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but >>>>paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the >>>>risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite >>>different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a >>>trial has been completed.

How exactly do you think anybody can provide a character reference for >>someone
they have never met Rich?

I have met plenty of people that I would not claim to know, or know
well. A submission to the court may well have been on behalf of the
family - but also relate to the person who has been convicted - we are
after all only going on a media story.

Putting a case to the court may be appropriate on behalf of a family but >>not on
the basis of character; it would have to be something else.

A "character" statement covers a fairly wide range of things - in this
case I presume Mallard would have been pointing out matters that are
known to him, possibly as you say on behalf of a family member.
Without reading the letter we cannot really assess details.

I don't compare this to the Trevor Williamson case because they are very >>different. This one smacks of laziness or lack of thought!
Tony

Indeed that may well have been the case, on the part of the
"reporter", or Mallard. Or it may not! We just don't have enough
information to tell.

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:21:16 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>> loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

Of course you are right again Rich - all this poor youth did was lie to >>police about a speeding offence, clocked at a mere 210 kph, claiming his >>vehicle had been stolen. An exemplary young man who any MP would provide
a reference for, on Crown letter head, without actually knowing the >>individual. Perfectly sensible everyday practice. Like you, I can't >>understand what anyone sees wrong with this at all. Of course, if it had >>been a National MP things would be a little different. You'd have worn
out your fingertips and keyboard telling all and sundry what evil
bastards the nats are, how John Key is the devil incarnate, and how this
is the end of the National party.

What crap. I don't care what party the electorate MP belongs to; they
all write lettters on behalf of constituents and their families.
Sometimes they go over the mark, this was not one of them.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 17:45:46 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Liberty <liberty48@live.com> wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:09:17 -0600, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
dot nz> wrote:

Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference,
True. But the MP normally personally knows the person.
Just knowing the family is a cop out .
As this persons son is a bit of a dipstick with a second offence
It is also debatable with Mallard court history. Is he suitable to
give a character reference.
What justification was there to use a Labour party letter head.
Implied character reference of a non entity. How wrong is that ?
This scandal is so wrong on so many levels Mallard should resign.

I think you responded to me instead of Rich, by accident of course.
I certainly do not think that character references are a common part of
the job
of an MP unless they know the person well.
Tony

The article implied that the letter relates more to sentencing options
than character; it was concerned with possible effects on his study
and future.

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:40:23 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 5:43 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:34:55 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:11:49 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 10:43 a.m., Liberty wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports >>>>>>> a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson >>>>>>> helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but >>>>>>> paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National >>>>>>> yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to >>>>>>> do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take >>>>>>> the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

Yeah. That's a strange one. Fair enough for an MP to advocate for a >>>>>> constituent, or anybody really. But Mallard didn't even know this
kid.

"I knew his family. Knew of but didn't know [the man] personally,"
Mallard said.

"Probably three or four families would approach me for assistance in >>>>> criminal matters for each letter I provide."

Community leaders, such as business people and clergy, have long
provided character references to the country's courts, he said.

"I probably provide a character reference once every three or four
years for courts. Similarly for banks. Letting agencies a bit more
frequently."

Saying he did not know the kid is only partly true. He is however a
constituent and Mallard knows his family.

And his offense was hardly a minor misdemeanor. Mallard needs a
walloping for this one. It's different than Williamson - who poked >>>>>> his
nose in during a police investigation- but the outcome should be the >>>>>> same.

The difference is very significant - a letter to the judge before
sentencing is quite different from trying to influence an
investigation. The outcome should, and I am sure will be, quite
different from the Williamson case.

Of course it is significantly different. But it doesn't negate the fact >>>> that Mallard was way out of line too.

How was it out of line, Fred?

Advocating for an offender who he doesn't know is ludicrous. This was a >>major offence. Mallard himself referred to the number of character >>references he provided - how the hell can he provide a character
reference for someone he doesn't know! Don't be your usual silly self
and try and defend the indefensible simply because he's a Labour member.

He knows the family - and will know the circumstances of the offender,
and the extent to which a conviction on all charges could affectt he
young person's future. Mallard was professionally invovled with
troubled outh in his occupation before becoming an MP - he would be
well aware of the impact, or lack of it, that a submission regarding sentencing is likely to make; but knowledge of support from family and community can make a difference to the appropriate sentence. I
certainly do not believe a judge would be unduly swayed by such a
letter, and it is certainly nothing like interference in an
investigation. .

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 21:32:38 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 7:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 19:40:23 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 5:43 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 17:34:55 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 11:11:49 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>

On 6/02/2016 10:43 a.m., Liberty wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head.
supports a
loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over
Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. >>>>>>>>> but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from
National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless >>>>>>>>> to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take >>>>>>>>> the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

Yeah. That's a strange one. Fair enough for an MP to advocate for a >>>>>>>> constituent, or anybody really. But Mallard didn't even know this >>>>>>>> kid.

"I knew his family. Knew of but didn't know [the man] personally," >>>>>>> Mallard said.

"Probably three or four families would approach me for assistance in >>>>>>> criminal matters for each letter I provide."

Community leaders, such as business people and clergy, have long >>>>>>> provided character references to the country's courts, he said.

"I probably provide a character reference once every three or four >>>>>>> years for courts. Similarly for banks. Letting agencies a bit more >>>>>>> frequently."

Saying he did not know the kid is only partly true. He is however a >>>>>>> constituent and Mallard knows his family.

And his offense was hardly a minor misdemeanor. Mallard needs a >>>>>>>> walloping for this one. It's different than Williamson - who poked >>>>>>>> his
nose in during a police investigation- but the outcome should be >>>>>>>> the same.

The difference is very significant - a letter to the judge before >>>>>>> sentencing is quite different from trying to influence an
investigation. The outcome should, and I am sure will be, quite
different from the Williamson case.

Of course it is significantly different. But it doesn't negate the >>>>>> fact
that Mallard was way out of line too.

How was it out of line, Fred?

Advocating for an offender who he doesn't know is ludicrous. This was a >>>> major offence. Mallard himself referred to the number of character
references he provided - how the hell can he provide a character
reference for someone he doesn't know! Don't be your usual silly self
and try and defend the indefensible simply because he's a Labour
member.

He knows the family - and will know the circumstances of the offender,
and the extent to which a conviction on all charges could affectt he
young person's future. Mallard was professionally invovled with
troubled outh in his occupation before becoming an MP - he would be
well aware of the impact, or lack of it, that a submission regarding
sentencing is likely to make; but knowledge of support from family and
community can make a difference to the appropriate sentence. I
certainly do not believe a judge would be unduly swayed by such a
letter, and it is certainly nothing like interference in an
investigation. .

You see nothing wrong with giving a reference for someone you do not
know. I would never do that - I'm amazed that you would.

It depends on what level you know someone. You can make judgements
about some people fromwhat you have been told by people you trust,
(such as teachers, social workers, priests or ministers of religion,
even from your own family), from seeing them occasionally, or knowing
them in the past, or you can form opinions about suitable sentencing
from quite meagre information, such as news reports. There are in fact
plenty of judgements made in nz.general on teh basis of a news report
- as is the case here. The reality is that an MP will often know
information about people in their electorate without being able to say
that they "know" the person, but which are enough for them to provide
useful information to a judge considering suitable sentencing. After
all, many in nz,general support the work of the Senseless Sentencing
Trust, who must often not know teh people they comment on at all.

I am not saying that what the MP did in this case was in the best
interests of justice - we just do not know that. What I do know is
that there are no laws or ethical reasons why any person should not
express their opinions. Submissions to judges may change nothing, but
the bnetter informed a judge is the better decisions they may make.

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:21:16 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>> loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to
do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the
risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

Of course you are right again Rich - all this poor youth did was lie to
police about a speeding offence, clocked at a mere 210 kph, claiming his
vehicle had been stolen. An exemplary young man who any MP would provide
a reference for, on Crown letter head, without actually knowing the
individual. Perfectly sensible everyday practice. Like you, I can't
understand what anyone sees wrong with this at all. Of course, if it had
been a National MP things would be a little different. You'd have worn
out your fingertips and keyboard telling all and sundry what evil
bastards the nats are, how John Key is the devil incarnate, and how this
is the end of the National party.

What crap. I don't care what party the electorate MP belongs to; they
all write lettters on behalf of constituents and their families.
Sometimes they go over the mark, this was not one of them.

On 7/02/2016 4:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:21:16 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>>> loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson
helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but
paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National
yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to >>>>> do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the >>>>> risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to
put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a
trial has been completed.

Of course you are right again Rich - all this poor youth did was lie to
police about a speeding offence, clocked at a mere 210 kph, claiming his >>> vehicle had been stolen. An exemplary young man who any MP would provide >>> a reference for, on Crown letter head, without actually knowing the
individual. Perfectly sensible everyday practice. Like you, I can't
understand what anyone sees wrong with this at all. Of course, if it had >>> been a National MP things would be a little different. You'd have worn
out your fingertips and keyboard telling all and sundry what evil
bastards the nats are, how John Key is the devil incarnate, and how this >>> is the end of the National party.

What crap. I don't care what party the electorate MP belongs to; they
all write lettters on behalf of constituents and their families.
Sometimes they go over the mark, this was not one of them.

If giving a reference to a court for someone who makes a false
statement to police, let alone driving at over 200 kmh isn't going over
the mark, WTF is!

What are you going to say when Little gives him a bollocking?

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 20:10:05 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 7/02/2016 4:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 16:21:16 +1300, Fred <dryrot@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 6/02/2016 2:50 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:43:35 +1300, Liberty <liberty48@live.com>
wrote:

Labour MP Trevor Mallard using a Labour party letter head. supports a >>>>>> loser who drives at 210 kph the lies to the police.
Now it was only a few months ago labour went mental over Williamson >>>>>> helping a constituent. Granted Williamson was a little unwise. but >>>>>> paid a heavy price for his indiscretion.
This scandal reeks of hypocrisy. Labour demand purity from National >>>>>> yet labour have standards lower than the gutter.
Will angry Andy sack Mallard . Hell no little is far to gutless to >>>>>> do that. besides, With such a divided caucus little will not take the >>>>>> risk of being told to go himself.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/76588716/Hutt-South-MP-Trevor-Mallard-supports-boy-racer-caught-clocking-up-210kmh-in-highway-race

It is not unusual for an MP to provide a character reference, and to >>>>> put a case to the court in respect of sentencing - that is quite
different from trying to influence a case behind the scenes beffore a >>>>> trial has been completed.

Of course you are right again Rich - all this poor youth did was lie to >>>> police about a speeding offence, clocked at a mere 210 kph, claiming his >>>> vehicle had been stolen. An exemplary young man who any MP would provide >>>> a reference for, on Crown letter head, without actually knowing the
individual. Perfectly sensible everyday practice. Like you, I can't
understand what anyone sees wrong with this at all. Of course, if it had >>>> been a National MP things would be a little different. You'd have worn >>>> out your fingertips and keyboard telling all and sundry what evil
bastards the nats are, how John Key is the devil incarnate, and how this >>>> is the end of the National party.

What crap. I don't care what party the electorate MP belongs to; they
all write lettters on behalf of constituents and their families.
Sometimes they go over the mark, this was not one of them.

If giving a reference to a court for someone who makes a false
statement to police, let alone driving at over 200 kmh isn't going over
the mark, WTF is!

What reference?

has options, Mallard wanted him to consider options that would enable
him to eventually lead a productive life; he was not helping his to
get a job or to mitigate the crimes for which he had been convicted!

What are you going to say when Little gives him a bollocking?

Teh jusge will givethe bollosking!

htat Mallard was concerned about. If Little wishes to be involved he
would undoubtedly seek more facts than we have available to us from a
single news article.