• Incredible Trump

    From Tony @3:770/3 to All on Sunday, June 04, 2017 17:24:05
    XPost: nz.comp, nz.politics, nz.tech

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of a country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to Ralph Fox on Sunday, June 04, 2017 18:20:17
    XPost: nz.politics

    Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
    On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    [snipped]

    Please keep the political sewer out of nz.comp and nz.tech.

    Crosspost trimmed.
    My sincere apology, it was unintentional
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Ralph Fox@3:770/3 to All on Monday, June 05, 2017 11:17:24
    XPost: nz.politics

    On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    [snipped]

    Please keep the political sewer out of nz.comp and nz.tech.

    Crosspost trimmed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From jmschristophers@gmail.com@3:770/3 to nor...@googlegroups.com on Sunday, June 04, 2017 17:17:26
    On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 10:24:11 AM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of

    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony

    Those inhabitants of the establishment - i.e. "the swamp" - who've taken Trump's shilling and are now serving in the White House, know they're dealing with a presidential psychotic, this characterised by his grandiosity and paranoia, both of which are
    driven by his delusional beliefs.

    IOW, Trump is the classic sociopath, detached from all reality, and incompetent
    in all formal and personal relationships other than with his wife and daughter who, perhaps not surprisingly, increasingly resemble warmed up exhibits from Madame Toussaud's.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From geoff@3:770/3 to Ralph Fox on Monday, June 05, 2017 12:35:23
    On 5/06/2017 11:17 AM, Ralph Fox wrote:
    On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    [snipped]

    Please keep the political sewer out of nz.comp.

    Followup to nz.general


    Relevant . It is a computer game. Well, like the spawning generation of
    youth (now reaching into early twenties) the difference between that and
    the real world appears to be diminishing, not to mention Youtube and
    Instagram, Twatter, (etc) 'news' which further clouds real issues.

    geoff

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Mutley@3:770/3 to Ralph Fox on Monday, June 05, 2017 14:34:21
    Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

    On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    [snipped]

    Please keep the political sewer out of nz.tech.

    Followup to nz.general

    Nope . Put it in nz.politics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich80105@3:770/3 to All on Monday, June 05, 2017 19:08:03
    On Sun, 4 Jun 2017 17:17:26 -0700 (PDT), jmschristophers@gmail.com
    wrote:

    On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 10:24:11 AM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders >> out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony

    Those inhabitants of the establishment - i.e. "the swamp" - who've taken Trump's shilling and are now serving in the White House, know they're dealing with a presidential psychotic, this characterised by his grandiosity and paranoia, both of which are
    driven by his delusional beliefs.

    IOW, Trump is the classic sociopath, detached from all reality, and incompetent in all formal and personal relationships other than with his wife and daughter who, perhaps not surprisingly, increasingly resemble warmed up exhibits from Madame Toussaud's.

    It is the modern conservative way. The "face" does not have to do
    anything in relation to policies - he just has to be infinitely
    malleable, make statements that sound good but don;t mean anything (so
    anything done subsequently is a "promise delivered", then sell himself
    to the deliverers of campaign finance. He should love media more than
    anything else, as every day is a campaign day. Meanwhile, scripts are
    worked out by others, and decisions made away from public view. John
    Key was not the first model for that behaviour, but he performed the
    role well - his prime focus was publicity and trading favours, while
    the real agenda of reducing government to enrich the few went
    remorselessly on. The NZ National Party and the Republicans have
    exchanged information for years - the ability of Key to get away with
    dirty tricks, spin, and outright lies will not have been lost on the Republicans, although they probably gave more value to the Nats than
    they received; the USA is the leader in the ability to purchase
    policy; Key having a Hawaii home wasn't just about meeting Obama . . .

    Trump is a figure we can recognise, the policy imperatives behind him
    are not those for John Key - see:

    POLITICS

    How G.O.P. Leaders Came to View Climate Change as Fake Science

    By CORAL DAVENPORT and ERIC LIPTONJUNE 3, 2017

    A coal-fired power station in Mount Storm, W.Va., in January. The coal
    industry played an instrumental role in efforts to unwind the Obama administrationıs climate policies. Credit Luke Sharrett/Bloomberg
    WASHINGTON ‹ The campaign ad appeared during the presidential contest
    of 2008. Rapid-fire images of belching smokestacks and melting ice
    sheets were followed by a soothing narrator who praised a candidate
    who had stood up to President George W. Bush and ³sounded the alarm on
    global warming.²

    It was not made for a Democrat, but for Senator John McCain, who had
    just secured the Republican nomination.

    It is difficult to reconcile the Republican Party of 2008 with the
    party of 2017, whose leader, President Trump, has called global
    warming a hoax, reversed environmental policies that Mr. McCain
    advocated on his run for the White House, and this past week announced
    that he would take the nation out of the Paris climate accord, which
    was to bind the globe in an effort to halt the planetıs warming.

    The Republican Partyıs fast journey from debating how to combat
    human-caused climate change to arguing that it does not exist is a
    story of big political money, Democratic hubris in the Obama years and
    a partisan chasm that grew over nine years like a crack in the
    Antarctic shelf, favoring extreme positions and uncompromising
    rhetoric over cooperation and conciliation.

    ³Most Republicans still do not regard climate change as a hoax,² said
    Whit Ayres, a Republican strategist who worked for Senator Marco
    Rubioıs presidential campaign. ³But the entire climate change debate
    has now been caught up in the broader polarization of American
    politics.²

    ³In some ways,² he added, ³itıs become yet another of the long list of
    litmus test issues that determine whether or not youıre a good
    Republican.²

    Since Mr. McCain ran for president on climate credentials that were
    stronger than his opponent Barack Obamaıs, the scientific evidence
    linking greenhouse gases from fossil fuels to the dangerous warming of
    the planet has grown stronger. Scientists have for the first time
    drawn concrete links between the planetıs warming atmosphere and
    changes that affect Americansı daily lives and pocketbooks, from tidal
    flooding in Miami to prolonged water shortages in the Southwest to
    decreasing snow cover at ski resorts.

    That scientific consensus was enough to pull virtually all of the
    major nations along. Conservative-leaning governments in Britain,
    France, Germany and Japan all signed on to successive climate change agreements.

    Yet when Mr. Trump pulled the United States from the Paris accord, the
    Senate majority leader, the speaker of the House and every member of
    the elected Republican leadership were united in their praise.

    Those divisions did not happen by themselves. Republican lawmakers
    were moved along by a campaign carefully crafted by fossil fuel
    industry players, most notably Charles D. and David H. Koch, the
    Kansas-based billionaires who run a chain of refineries (which can
    process 600,000 barrels of crude oil per day) as well as a subsidiary
    that owns or operates 4,000 miles of pipelines that move crude oil.

    Government rules intended to slow climate change are ³making peopleıs
    lives worse rather than better,² Charles Koch explained in a rare
    interview last year with Fortune, arguing that despite the costs,
    these efforts would make ³very little difference in the future on what
    the temperature or the weather will be.²

    Republican leadership has also been dominated by lawmakers whose
    constituents were genuinely threatened by policies that would raise
    the cost of burning fossil fuels, especially coal. Senator Mitch
    McConnell of Kentucky, always sensitive to the coal fields in his
    state, rose through the ranks to become majority leader. Senator John
    Barrasso of Wyoming also climbed into leadership, then the
    chairmanship of the Committee on Environment and Public Works, as a
    champion of his coal state.

    Mr. Trump has staffed his White House and cabinet with officials who
    have denied, or at least questioned, the existence of global warming.
    And he has adopted the Koch language, almost to the word. On Thursday,
    as Mr. Trump announced the United Statesı withdrawal, he at once
    claimed that the Paris accord would cost the nation millions of jobs
    and that it would do next to nothing for the climate.

    Beyond the White House, Representative Lamar Smith of Texas, chairman
    of the House Science Committee, held a hearing this spring aimed at
    debunking climate science, calling the global scientific consensus ³exaggerations, personal agendas and questionable predictions.²

    A small core of Republican lawmakers ‹ most of whom are from swing
    districts and are at risk of losing their seats next year ‹ are taking
    modest steps like introducing a nonbinding resolution in the House in
    March urging Congress to accept the risks presented by climate change.

    But in Republican political circles, speaking out on the issue, let
    alone pushing climate policy, is politically dangerous. So for the
    most part, these moderate Republicans are biding their time, until it
    once again becomes safe for Republicans to talk more forcefully about
    climate change. The question is how long that will take.

    ³With 40 percent of Floridaıs population at risk from sea-level rise,
    my state is on the front lines of climate change,² said Representative
    Carlos Curbelo, Republican of Florida. ³South Florida residents are
    already beginning to feel the effects of climate change in their daily
    lives.²

    ŒThe Turning Pointı

    It was called the ³No Climate Tax² pledge, drafted by a new group
    called Americans for Prosperity that was funded by the Koch brothers.
    Its single sentence read: ³I will oppose any legislation relating to
    climate change that includes a net increase in government revenue.² Representative Jim Jordan, Republican of Ohio, was the first member of
    Congress to sign it in July 2008.

    The effort picked up steam the next year after the House of
    Representatives passed what is known as cap-and-trade legislation, a
    concept invented by conservative Reagan-era economists.

    The idea was to create a statutory limit, or cap, on the overall
    amount of a certain type of pollution that could be emitted.
    Businesses could then buy and sell permits to pollute, choosing
    whether to invest more in pollution permits, or in cleaner technology
    that would then save them money and allow them to sell their allotted
    permits. The administration of the first President George Bush
    successfully deployed the first national cap-and-trade system in 1990
    to lower emissions of the pollutants that cause acid rain. Mr. McCain
    pushed a cap-and-trade proposal to fight climate change.

    ³I thought we could get it done,² recalled Henry A. Waxman, a retired
    House Democrat who led the cap-and-trade push in 2009. ³We just had
    two candidates from the Republican and Democratic parties who had run
    for president and agreed that climate change was a real threat.²

    Conservative activists saw the legislative effort as an opportunity to transform the climate debate.

    With the help of a small army of oil-industry-funded academics like
    Wei-Hock Soon of Harvard Smithsonian and think tanks like the
    Competitive Enterprise Institute, they had been working to discredit
    academics and government climate change scientists. The lawyer and
    conservative activist Chris Horner, whose legal clients have included
    the coal industry, gathered documents through the Freedom of
    Information Act to try to embarrass and further undermine the climate
    change research.

    Myron Ebell, a senior fellow with the Competitive Enterprise
    Institute, worked behind the scenes to make sure Republican offices in
    Congress knew about Mr. Hornerıs work ‹ although at the time, many
    viewed Mr. Ebell skeptically, as an extremist pushing out-of-touch
    views.

    In 2009, hackers broke into a climate research program at the
    University of East Anglia in England, then released the emails that conservatives said raised doubts about the validity of the research.
    In one email, a scientist talked of using a statistical ³trick² in a
    chart illustrating a recent sharp warming trend. The research was
    ultimately validated, but damage was done.

    As Congress moved toward actually passing climate change legislation,
    a fringe issue had become a part of the political mainstream.

    ³That was the turning point,² Mr. Horner said.

    The House passed the cap-and-trade bill by seven votes, but it went
    nowhere in the Senate ‹ Mr. Obamaıs first major legislative defeat.

    Unshackled by the Supreme Courtıs Citizens United decision and other
    related rulings, which ended corporate campaign finance restrictions,
    Koch Industries and Americans for Prosperity started an all-fronts
    campaign with television advertising, social media and cross-country
    events aimed at electing lawmakers who would ensure that the fossil
    fuel industry would not have to worry about new pollution regulations.

    Their first target: unseating Democratic lawmakers such as
    Representatives Rick Boucher and Tom Perriello of Virginia, who had
    voted for the House cap-and-trade bill, and replacing them with
    Republicans who were seen as more in step with struggling Appalachia,
    and who pledged never to push climate change measures.

    But Americans for Prosperity also wanted to send a message to
    Republicans.

    Until 2010, some Republicans ran ads in House and Senate races showing
    their support for green energy.

    ³After that, it disappeared from Republican ads,² said Tim Phillips,
    the president of Americans for Prosperity. ³Part of that was the
    polling, and part of it was the visceral example of what happened to
    their colleagues who had done that.²

    What happened was clear. Republicans who asserted support for climate
    change legislation or the seriousness of the climate threat saw their
    money dry up or, worse, a primary challenger arise.

    ³It told Republicans that we were serious,² Mr. Phillips said, ³that
    we would spend some serious money against them.²

    By the time Election Day 2010 arrived, 165 congressional members and
    candidates had signed Americans for Prosperityıs ³No Climate Tax²
    pledge.

    Most were victorious.

    ³The midterm election was a clear rejection of policies like the
    cap-and-trade energy taxes that threaten our still-fragile economy,²
    said James Valvo, then Americans for Prosperityıs government affairs
    director, in a statement issued the day after the November 2010
    election. Eighty-three of the 92 new members of Congress had signed
    the pledge.

    Even for congressional veterans, that message was not missed.
    Representative Fred Upton, a Michigan Republican who once called
    climate change ³a serious problem² and co-sponsored a bill to promote energy-efficient light bulbs, tacked right after the 2010 elections as
    he battled to be chairman of the powerful House Energy and Commerce
    Committee against Joe Barton, a Texan who mocked human-caused climate
    change.

    Mr. Upton deleted references to climate change from his website. ³If
    you look, the last year was the warmest year on record, the warmest
    decade on record. I accept that,² he offered that fall. ³I do not say
    that itıs man-made.²

    Mr. Upton, who has received more than $2 million in campaign donations
    from oil and gas companies and electric utilities over the course of
    his career, won the chairmanship and has coasted comfortably to
    re-election since.

    Two years later, conservative ³super PACs² took aim at Senator Richard
    G. Lugar of Indiana, a senior Republican who publicly voiced climate
    concerns, backed the creation of a Midwestern cap-and-trade program
    and drove a Prius. After six Senate terms, Mr. Lugar lost his primary
    to a Tea Party challenger, Richard E. Mourdock. Although Mr. Lugar
    says other reasons contributed, he and his opponents say his public
    views on climate change played a crucial role.

    ³In my own campaign, there were people who felt strongly enough about
    my views on climate change to use it to help defeat me, and other
    Republicans are very sensitive to that possibility,² Mr. Lugar said in
    an interview. ³So even if they privately believe we ought to do
    something about it, theyıre reticent, especially with the Republican
    president taking the views he is now taking.²

    Obama Feeds the Movement

    After winning re-election in 2012, Mr. Obama understood his
    second-term agenda would have to rely on executive authority, not
    legislation that would go nowhere in the Republican-majority Congress.
    And climate change was the great unfinished business of his first
    term.

    To finish it, he would deploy a rarely used provision in the Clean Air
    Act of 1970, which gave the Environmental Protection Agency the
    authority to issue regulations on carbon dioxide.

    ³If Congress wonıt act soon to protect future generations, I will,² he
    declared in his 2013 State of the Union address.

    Document: An Ad Trump Signed Supporting Action on Climate Change
    The result was the Clean Power Plan, which would significantly cut planet-warming emissions by forcing the closing of hundreds of
    heavy-polluting coal-fired power plants.

    The end run around Congress had consequences of its own. To Republican
    (and some Democratic) critics, the Clean Power Plan exemplified
    everything they opposed about Mr. Obama: He seemed to them imperious, heavy-handed, pleasing to the elites on the East and West Coasts and
    in the capitals of Europe, but callous to the blue-collar workers of
    coal and oil country.

    ³It fed into this notion of executive overreach,² said Heather Zichal,
    who advised Mr. Obama on climate policy. ³I donıt think there was a
    good enough job on managing the narrative.²

    Republicans who had supported the climate change agenda began to
    defect and have since stayed away.

    ³On the issue of climate change, I think itıs happening,² Mr. McCain
    said in a CNN podcast interview last April. But, he said, ³The
    president decided, at least in the last couple years if not more, to
    rule by edict.²

    Mr. Obamaıs political opponents saw the climate rules as a ripe
    opportunity. ³When the president went the regulatory route, it gave
    our side more confidence,² Mr. Phillips said. ³It hardened and
    broadened Republican opposition to this agenda.²

    Starting in early 2014, the opponents of the rule ‹ including powerful
    lawyers and lobbyists representing many of Americaıs largest
    manufacturing and industrial interests ‹ regularly gathered in a large conference room at the national headquarters of the U.S. Chamber of
    Commerce, overlooking the White House. They drafted a long-game legal
    strategy to undermine Mr. Obamaıs climate regulations in a coordinated
    campaign that brought together 28 state attorneys general and major corporations to form an argument that they expected to eventually take
    to the Supreme Court.

    They presented it not as an environmental fight but an economic one,
    against a government that was trying to vastly and illegally expand
    its authority.

    ³This is the most significant wholesale regulation of energy that the
    United States has ever seen, by any agency,² Roger R. Martella Jr., a
    former E.P.A. lawyer who then represented energy companies, said at a
    gathering of industry advocates, making an assertion that has not been
    tested.

    Attorneys General Step In

    Republican attorneys general gathered at the Greenbrier resort in West
    Virginia in August 2015 for their annual summer retreat, with some
    special guests: four executives from Murray Energy, one of the
    nationıs largest coal mining companies.

    Murray was struggling to avoid bankruptcy ‹ a fate that had befallen
    several other coal mining companies already, given the slump in demand
    for their product and the rise of natural gas, solar and wind energy.

    The coal industry came to discuss a new part of the campaign to
    reverse the countryıs course on climate change. Litigation was going
    to be needed, the industry executives and the Republican attorneys
    general agreed, to block the Obama administrationıs climate agenda ‹
    at least until a new president could be elected.

    West Virginiaıs attorney general, Patrick Morrisey, led the session,
    ³The Dangerous Consequences of the Clean Power Plan & Other E.P.A.
    Rules,² which included, according to the agenda, Scott Pruitt, then
    the attorney general of Oklahoma; Ken Paxton, Texası attorney general;
    and Geoffrey Barnes, a corporate lawyer for Murray, which had donated
    $250,000 to the Republican attorneys general political group.

    That same day, Mr. Morrissey would step outside the hotel to announce
    that he and other attorneys general would sue in federal court to try
    to stop the Clean Power Plan, which he called ³the most far-reaching
    energy regulation in this nationıs history, drawn up by radical
    bureaucrats.²

    Mr. Pruitt quickly became a national point person for industry-backed
    groups and a magnet for millions of dollars of campaign contributions,
    as the fossil fuel lobby looked for a fresh face with conservative
    credentials and ties to the evangelical community.

    ³Pruitt was instrumental ‹ he and A.G. Morrisey,² said Thomas Pyle, a
    former lobbyist for Koch Industries, an adviser to Mr. Trumpıs
    transition team and the president of a pro-fossil fuel Washington
    research organization, the Institute for Energy Research. ³They led
    the charge and made it easier for other states to get involved. Some
    states were keeping their powder dry, but Pruitt was very out front
    and aggressive.²

    After the litigation was filed ‹ by Mr. Morrissey and Mr. Pruitt,
    along with other attorneys general who attended the Greenbrier meeting
    ‹ Murray Energy sued in the federal court case as well, just as had
    been planned.

    In February 2016, the Supreme Court indicated that it would side with
    opponents of the rule, moving by a 5-4 vote to grant a request by the
    attorneys general and corporate players to block the implementation of
    the
    Clean Power Plan while the case worked its way through the federal
    courts.


    Trump Stokes the Fires

    When Donald J. Trump decided to run for president, he did not appear
    to have a clear understanding of the nationıs climate change policies.
    Nor, at the start of his campaign, did he appear to have any specific
    plan to prioritize a huge legal push to roll those policies back.

    Mr. Trump had, in 2012, said on Twitter, ³The concept of global
    warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S.
    manufacturing non-competitive.² But he had also, in 2009, joined
    dozens of other business leaders to sign a full-page ad in the The New
    York Times urging Mr. Obama to push a global climate change pact being negotiated in Copenhagen, and to ³strengthen and pass United States legislation² to tackle climate change.

    However, it did not go unnoticed that coal country was giving his
    presidential campaign a wildly enthusiastic embrace, as miners came
    out in full force for Mr. Trump, stoking his populist message.

    And the surest way for Mr. Trump to win cheers from coal crowds was to
    aim at an easy target: Mr. Obamaıs climate rules. Hillary Clinton did
    not help her cause when she said last spring that her climate policies
    would ³put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.²

    In May 2016, Mr. Trump addressed one of the largest rallies of his
    campaign: an estimated crowd of over 10,000 in Charleston, W.Va.,
    where the front rows were crammed with mine workers.

    ³Iım thinking about miners all over the country,² he said, eliciting
    cheers. ³Weıre going to put miners back to work.²

    ³They didnıt used to have all these rules and regulations that make it impossible to compete,² he added. ³Weıre going to take it all off the
    table.²

    Then an official from the West Virginia Coal Association handed the
    candidate a minerıs hat.

    As he put it on, giving the miners a double thumbs-up, ³The place just
    went nuts, and he loved it,² recalled Barry Bennett, a former adviser
    to Mr. Trumpıs presidential campaign. ³And the miners started showing
    up at everything. They were a beaten lot, and they saw him as a
    savior. So he started using the Œsave coalı portions of the speech
    again and again.²

    Mr. Trumpıs advisers embraced the miners as emblematic of the
    candidateıs broader populist appeal.

    ³The coal miners were the perfect case for what he was talking about,²
    Mr. Bennett said, ³the idea that for the government in Washington,
    itıs all right for these people to suffer for the greater good ‹ that
    federal power is more important than your little lives.²

    Mr. Trump took on as an informal campaign adviser Robert E. Murray ‹
    chief executive of the same coal company that had been working closely
    for years with the Republican attorneys general to unwind the Obama environmental legacy.

    Mr. Murray, a brash and folksy populist who started working in coal
    mines as a teenager, is an unabashed skeptic of climate science. The
    coal magnate and Mr. Trump had a natural chemistry, and where Mr.
    Trump lacked the legal and policy background to unwind climate policy,
    Mr. Murray was happy to step in.

    ³I thank my lord, Jesus Christ, for the election of Donald Trump,² Mr.
    Murray said soon after his new friend won the White House.

    Mr. Trump appointed Mr. Ebell, the Competitive Enterprise Institute
    fellow who had worked for years to undermine the legitimacy of
    established climate science, to head the transition team at E.P.A. Mr.
    Ebell immediately began pushing for an agenda of gutting the Obama
    climate regulations and withdrawing from the Paris Agreement.

    When it came time to translate Mr. Trumpıs campaign promises to coal
    country into policy, Mr. Murray and others helped choose the perfect
    candidate: Mr. Pruitt, the Oklahoma attorney general.

    Mr. Trump, who had never met Mr. Pruitt before his election, offered
    him the job of E.P.A. administrator ‹ putting him in a position to
    dismantle the environmental rules that he had long sought to fight in
    court.

    Meanwhile, Mr. Trump wanted to be seen delivering on the promises he
    had made to the miners. As controversies piled up in his young
    administration, he sought comfort in the approval of his base.

    In March, Mr. Trump signed an executive order directing Mr. Pruitt to
    begin unwinding the Clean Power Plan ‹ and he did so at a large public
    ceremony at the E.P.A., flanked by coal miners and coal executives.
    Mr. Murray beamed in the audience.

    Meanwhile, a battle raged at the White House over whether to withdraw
    the United States from the Paris agreement. Mr. Trumpıs daughter
    Ivanka and his secretary of state, Rex W. Tillerson, urged him to
    remain in, cautioning that withdrawing could be devastating to the
    United Statesı foreign policy credentials.

    Murray Energy ‹ despite its enormous clout with Mr. Trump and his top environmental official ‹ boasts a payroll with only 6,000 employees.
    The coal industry nationwide is responsible for about 160,000 jobs,
    with just 65,000 directly in mining, according to the federal Energy Information Administration.

    By comparison, General Electric alone has 104,000 employees in the
    United States, and Apple has 80,000. Their chief executives openly
    pressed Mr. Trump to stick with Paris, as did dozens of other major corporations that have continued to support regulatory efforts to
    combat climate change.

    But these voices did not have clout in Washington, either in Congress
    or at the White House, when it comes to energy policy.

    Mr. Trumpıs senior adviser, Stephen K. Bannon, backed by Mr. Pruitt,
    told the president that pulling out of the deal would mean a promise
    kept to his base.

    ³It is time to put Youngstown, Ohio; Detroit, Michigan; and
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania ‹ along with many, many other locations
    within our great country ‹ before Paris, France,² Mr. Trump said in
    his Rose Garden speech on Thursday. ³It is time to make America great
    again.²

    The Science Gets Stronger

    The recognition that human activity is influencing the climate
    developed slowly, but a scientific consensus can be traced to a
    conference in southern Austria in October 1985. Among the 100 or so
    attendees who gathered in the city of Villach, nestled in the
    mountains along the Drava River, was Bert Bolin, a Swedish
    meteorologist and a pioneer in using computers to model the
    climate.

    Dr. Bolin helped steer the conference to its conclusion: ³It is now
    believed that in the first half of the next century a rise of global
    mean temperature could occur which is greater than any in manıs
    history,² he wrote in the conferenceıs 500-page report.

    While the politics of climate change in the United States has grown
    more divided since then, the scientific community has united: Global
    warming is having an impact, scientists say, with sea levels rising
    along with the extremity of weather events. Most of the debate is
    about the extent of those impacts ‹ how high the seas may rise, or how
    intense and frequent heavy storms or heat waves may be.

    In recent years, many climate scientists have also dropped their
    reluctance to pin significant weather events on climate change.
    Studies have shown that certain events ‹ a 2015 Australian heat wave,
    floods in France last year and recent high temperatures in the Arctic
    ‹ were made more likely because of global warming.

    But in Congress, reluctance to embrace that science has had no
    political downsides, at least among Republicans.

    ³We donıt yet have an example of where someone has paid a political
    price being on that side of it,² said Michael Steel, who served as
    press secretary for the former House speaker John A. Boehner, the
    Republican presidential candidate Jeb Bush and the current House
    speaker, Paul D. Ryan, during his 2012 run as Mitt Romneyıs
    vice-presidential choice.

    Instead, the messages of Mr. Pruitt still dominate.

    ³This is an historic restoration of American economic independence ‹
    one that will benefit the working class, the working poor and working
    people of all stripes,² Mr. Pruitt said on Thursday, stepping to the
    Rose Garden lectern after Mr. Trump. ³We owe no apologies to other
    nations for our environmental stewardship.²

    American voters ‹ even many Republicans ‹ recognize that climate
    change is starting to affect their lives. About 70 percent think
    global warming is happening, and about 53 percent think it is caused
    by human activities, according to a recent study by the Yale Program
    on Climate Change Communication. About 69 percent support limiting
    carbon dioxide emissions from coal-fired power plants.

    But most public opinion polls find that voters rank the environment
    last or nearly last among the issues that they vote on. And views are
    divided based on party affiliation. In 2001, 46 percent of Democrats
    said they worried ³a great deal² about climate change, compared with
    29 percent of Republicans, according to a Gallup tracking poll on the
    issue. This year, concern among Democrats has reached 66 percent.
    Among Republicans, it has fallen, to 18 percent.

    Until people vote on the issue, Republicans will find it politically
    safer to question climate science and policy than to alienate moneyed
    groups like Americans for Prosperity.

    There will be exceptions. The 2014 National Climate Assessment, a
    report produced by 14 federal agencies, concluded that climate change
    is responsible for much of the flooding now plaguing many of the Miami
    areaıs coastal residents, soaking homes and disrupting businesses, and Representative Curbelo is talking about it.


    ³This is a local issue for me,² Mr. Curbelo said. ³Even conservatives
    in my district see the impact. Itıs flooding, and itıs happening now.²

    Mr. Curbelo helped create the House Climate Solutions Caucus, 20
    Republicans and 20 Democrats who say they are committed to tackling
    climate change.

    Mr. Curbelo is confident that as the impact of climate change spreads,
    so will the willingness of his Republican colleagues to join him.

    Outside of Congress, a small number of establishment conservatives,
    including a handful of leaders from the Reagan administration, have
    begun pushing Washington to act on climate change. Earlier this year,
    James A. Baker III, one of the Republican Partyıs more eminent senior
    figures, met with senior White House officials to urge them to
    consider incorporating a carbon tax as part of a broader tax overhaul
    package ‹ a way to both pay for proposed cuts to corporate tax rates
    and help save the planet. A Reagan White House senior economist, Art
    Laffer; a former secretary of state, George P. Shultz; and Henry M.
    Paulson Jr., George W. Bushıs final Treasury secretary, have also
    pushed the idea.

    ³There are members from deep-red districts who have approached me
    about figuring out how to become part of this effort,² Mr. Curbelo
    said. ³I know we have the truth on our side. So Iım confident that
    weıll win eventually.²

    Henry Fountain contributed reporting from New York.

    A version of this article appears in print on June 4, 2017, on Page A1
    of the New York edition with the headline: How G.O.P. Leaders Came to
    Reject Climate Science.

    İ The New York Times Company 2017

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Gordon@3:770/3 to Ralph Fox on Monday, June 05, 2017 07:48:53
    On 2017-06-04, Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
    On Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    [snipped]

    Please keep the political sewer out of nz.comp and nz.tech.


    On one level I find it interesting, how the present President of the U S of A is trying to run the country like a private business. He is acting as the
    CEO of U S of A inc.

    The other very worrying matter is since he represents the people, just, how
    can we/they get out of this mess.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From BR@3:770/3 to dot nz on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 05:57:47
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of >hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders >out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to buggeroff@spammer.com on Monday, June 05, 2017 15:14:08
    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of >>hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders >>out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of >>a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept.

    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich80105@3:770/3 to dot nz on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 15:45:04
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders >>>out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept.

    Tony

    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pooh@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 00:35:17
    On 6/06/2017 3:45 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept. >>
    Tony

    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.


    It's Keith a.k.a Newsman. he's proved many times that he is in fact a
    bigot and an idiot.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.


    If he does nothing else worthwhile Trump will be remembered for pulling
    the USA out of the fraud that is 'climate change'. Many leading
    scientists have been exposing the bullshit science being pushed by left
    wing idiots like you and the Green party Rich.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.


    His views are shared by far more than share yours Rich:)

    Pooh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to rich80105@hotmail.com on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 19:21:42
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >>>dot nz> wrote:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full >>>>of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world >>>>leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm >>>>of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National >>>Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost >certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you have tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I doubt that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of >climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and stuff all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies, sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding to your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees with you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at you - why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself as a dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is patently not the case. What a sad person you are!
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From jmschristophers@gmail.com@3:770/3 to nor...@googlegroups.com on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 21:21:20
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >>>dot nz> wrote:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly
    full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world >>>>leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the
    helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National >>>Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept. >>
    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost >certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you
    have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I doubt

    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of >climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and
    stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies, sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding to

    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees
    with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at you
    -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself as
    a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others caught in the "Rich"
    honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than hitherto?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From JohnO@3:770/3 to jmschri...@gmail.com on Tuesday, June 06, 2017 21:31:08
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 16:21:21 UTC+12, jmschri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com
    wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >>>dot nz> wrote:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly
    full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world >>>>leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the
    helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National >>>Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud. >>>
    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than
    inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost >certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you
    have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I
    doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this

    newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA >pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of >climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you >disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and
    stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country

    mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies,

    sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding
    to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless

    life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees
    with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at
    you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself
    as a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for
    worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others caught in the "Rich"
    honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further
    opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time.

    No - you've jumped unthinkingly to that conclusion as it suits your own perspective.

    "Rich" does not engage as that would require carefully reading, thinking and then writing. "Rich" just pours out by rote - no thought required nor employed.

    So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel
    about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought
    efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?


    I'd say it's for the benefit of the wider readership.

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might
    well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than
    hitherto?

    Tony's doing a good job. The fact that many of your own prejudices align nicely
    with "Rich" is getting in your own way. Keith.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Rich80105@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 16:59:20
    On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT), jmschristophers@gmail.com
    wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world
    leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept. >> >>
    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this >> newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country >> mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies, >> sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and
    maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless >> life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You
    clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself as
    a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is >> patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others caught in the "Rich"
    honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might well
    be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than hitherto?

    Tony believes he has the only legitimate view of Trump - and even when
    others share at least part of his biews he cannot help himself by
    attacking rather than addressing the issue. In this case, having
    started the thread, he has consistently attacked all other postersso
    far, using vitriolic language that far exceeeds anyone else in abuse
    and disrespect. It appears part of the polarisation of views that has
    been encouraged by he right in America - they are now reaping the
    rewards with a creature of their own making; Tony wants to do the same
    with nz.general.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to nor...@googlegroups.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 00:03:01
    jmschristophers@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly
    full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world
    leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the
    helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept. >> >>
    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you >>have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I >>doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this >> newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and >>stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country >> mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies, >> sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding >>to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and
    maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless >> life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You
    clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees >>with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at >>you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself as >>a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is >> patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for >worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any >other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others >caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with >him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further >opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask yourself: >who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought >efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might well >be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >hitherto?
    I commend to you what JohnO has written so well, and for emphasis I remind you of the famous line "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". Some say that this came from Edmund Burke, and others disagree but I don't give a fat rat's bum who wrote it because it is as true an observation as any I have ever read.
    And that, my friend, is why I do all I can to keep Rich in-line. Whether I succeed or not isnot the point, it is the self-defeating failure to try that is anathema to me.
    There are others here, JohnO is one, Allistar is another that do the same.
    Why don't you try to encourage Rich to behave better and lie less? Interesting thought eh?
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to jmschri...@gmail.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 00:06:50
    JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 16:21:21 UTC+12, jmschri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com >>wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >> > >>>dot nz> wrote:


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly >> > >>>>full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world >> > >>>>leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the >> > >>>>helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >> > >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud. >> > >>>
    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than
    inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you >> >have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I
    doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in
    this
    newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and >> >stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a
    country
    mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at
    lies,
    sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding >> >to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and
    maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire
    worthless
    life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You >> > clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees >> >with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at >> >you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself >> >as a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is >> > patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for >>worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any >>other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others >>caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with >>him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further >>opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time.

    No - you've jumped unthinkingly to that conclusion as it suits your own >perspective.

    "Rich" does not engage as that would require carefully reading, thinking and >then writing. "Rich" just pours out by rote - no thought required nor employed.

    So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel >>about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought >>efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?


    I'd say it's for the benefit of the wider readership.

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might >>well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >>hitherto?

    Tony's doing a good job. The fact that many of your own prejudices align >nicely with "Rich" is getting in your own way. Keith.
    Interestingly I believe that you and I do not agree on the "global warming" debate. I am prepared to debate it but tend not to because it is moot!
    Glabal warming is either real or not, but the entrenched views of those that believe in it or do not are such that we simply have to wait and see.
    Thanks for your understanding.
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From george152@3:770/3 to jmschristophers@gmail.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 17:07:55
    On 6/7/2017 4:21 PM, jmschristophers@gmail.com wrote:

    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for
    worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others caught in the "Rich"
    honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further
    opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought
    efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might
    well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than
    hitherto?


    Thank you for the monologue rich.
    This is the reason as to why your basic nym reside in my killfile.
    And why this one follows it !

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Tony @3:770/3 to rich80105@hotmail.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 04:27:57
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT), jmschristophers@gmail.com
    wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com >>wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >>> >>>dot nz> wrote:


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and clearly >>> >>>>full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world >>> >>>>leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at the >>> >>>>helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >>> >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate fraud. >>> >>>
    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something you >>>have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I >>>doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in this >>> newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of
    climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept
    and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics and >>>stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a country >>> mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at lies, >>> sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely responding >>>to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and
    maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire worthless >>> life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. You >>> clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who disagrees >>>with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go at >>>you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display yourself >>>as a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which is >>> patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or for >>worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than any >>other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others >>caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage with >>him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further >>opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask yourself: >>who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your overwrought >>efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might >>well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >>hitherto?

    Tony believes he has the only legitimate view of Trump - and even when
    others share at least part of his biews he cannot help himself by
    attacking rather than addressing the issue. In this case, having
    started the thread, he has consistently attacked all other postersso
    far, using vitriolic language that far exceeeds anyone else in abuse
    and disrespect. It appears part of the polarisation of views that has
    been encouraged by he right in America - they are now reaping the
    rewards with a creature of their own making; Tony wants to do the same
    with nz.general.
    How silly. Of course I do not believe I have the only legitimate view of anything (at all).
    And I only responded to people that were attacking me - but then you would have to read the thread to undersatnd that and I cannot expect you to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest - that would require a frontal lobotomy.
    I do however believe that you are self-delusional and self-aggrandising, just like Trump.
    A little humility would do you a tiny bit of good and your reputation a lot of good - but that is not something you could ever aspire to.
    Tony

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From HitAnyKey@3:770/3 to All on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 11:00:22
    On Wed, 07 Jun 2017 16:59:20 +1200, Rich80105 wrote:

    On Tue, 6 Jun 2017 21:21:20 -0700 (PDT), jmschristophers@gmail.com
    wrote:

    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12,
    nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net
    dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot
    net dot nz> wrote:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london- terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-
    again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and
    clearly full of hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself,
    pushes other world leaders out of the way and fires anybody who
    disagrees with him remain at the helm of a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the
    courage?
    Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate
    fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than
    inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again,
    Tony.
    It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot
    and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something
    you have tried many times and always with the same degree of abject
    failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but
    I doubt that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your
    record in this newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is
    indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to
    the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence
    of climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as
    inept and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be
    used to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics
    and stuff all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a
    country mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past
    master at lies, sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I
    am merely responding to your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and
    maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire
    worthless life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is
    non-existent. You clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that
    anybody who disagrees with you deserves contempt and yet you complain
    that other people have a go at you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display
    yourself as a dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity
    which is patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or >>for worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - >>than any other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company >>with others caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so
    fruitlessly to engage with him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further >>opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time. So ask
    yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you feel
    about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your
    overwrought efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena
    might well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >>hitherto?

    Tony believes he has the only legitimate view of Trump - and even when
    others share at least part of his biews he cannot help himself by
    attacking rather than addressing the issue. In this case, having started
    the thread, he has consistently attacked all other postersso far, using vitriolic language that far exceeeds anyone else in abuse and
    disrespect. It appears part of the polarisation of views that has been encouraged by he right in America - they are now reaping the rewards
    with a creature of their own making; Tony wants to do the same with nz.general.

    Not for the first time, the inferences you draw and the conclusions you
    arrive at owe very little or nothing to the witness you posit.

    Beyond all that, there is an obvious need for you to consult Matthew
    7:3

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From JohnO@3:770/3 to nor...@googlegroups.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 13:05:33
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 17:06:56 UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 16:21:21 UTC+12, jmschri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com >>wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >> > >dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot
    net
    dot nz> wrote:


    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and
    clearly
    full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other world

    leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at
    the
    helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage? >> > >>>>Tony


    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    http://www.avg.com

    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National
    Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate
    fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than >> > >>inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony. >> > >It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost
    certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot >> > >and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something
    you
    have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I >> >doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in >> >this
    newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to >> > >the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of >> > >climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept >> > >and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used
    to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics
    and
    stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a
    country
    mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at >> >lies,
    sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely
    responding
    to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and >> > maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire
    worthless
    life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent.
    You
    clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who
    disagrees
    with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go
    at
    you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display
    yourself
    as a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which
    is
    patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or
    for
    worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than
    any
    other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others >>caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage
    with
    him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further >>opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time.

    No - you've jumped unthinkingly to that conclusion as it suits your own >perspective.

    "Rich" does not engage as that would require carefully reading, thinking and

    then writing. "Rich" just pours out by rote - no thought required nor
    employed.

    So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you
    feel
    about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your
    overwrought
    efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?


    I'd say it's for the benefit of the wider readership.

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might >>well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >>hitherto?

    Tony's doing a good job. The fact that many of your own prejudices align >nicely with "Rich" is getting in your own way. Keith.
    Interestingly I believe that you and I do not agree on the "global warming" debate.

    Really? I'm very skeptical of the "science is settled" claim and anyone who makes it as the science is clearly not settled. I'm automatically skeptical of any faction that attempts to suppress debate. Both of these attributes are displayed by some of the
    AGW groups.

    On the subject of man-made contribution to *climate change*, I tend to agree with the IPCC that man-made pollution does contribute to climate change. However the question is how much and that is not settled.

    The whole debate sees science being smothered by politics. As I posted elsewhere I think Trump did the right thing by pulling out of the Paris accord.
    The USA is probably the only country that is steadily reducing its emissions, and China is the world's
    worst polluter, yet this accord benefits China over the USA. What a crock.

    I am prepared to debate it but tend not to because it is moot!
    Glabal warming is either real or not, but the entrenched views of those that believe in it or do not are such that we simply have to wait and see.
    Thanks for your understanding.
    Tony

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  • From george152@3:770/3 to JohnO on Thursday, June 08, 2017 08:29:26
    On 6/8/2017 8:05 AM, JohnO wrote:

    The whole debate sees science being smothered by politics. As I posted
    elsewhere I think Trump did the right thing by pulling out of the Paris accord.
    The USA is probably the only country that is steadily reducing its emissions, and China is the world'
    s worst polluter, yet this accord benefits China over the USA. What a crock.

    Yup.
    One of those inconvenient facts.
    Also the US was funding this process where they were getting kicked in
    the gonads by those who were contributing little or nothing


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  • From Tony @3:770/3 to nor...@googlegroups.com on Wednesday, June 07, 2017 15:30:23
    JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 17:06:56 UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
    JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, 7 June 2017 16:21:21 UTC+12, jmschri...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wednesday, June 7, 2017 at 12:21:48 PM UTC+12, nor...@googlegroups.com >> >>wrote:
    Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 15:14:08 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net >> >> > >dot nz> wrote:

    BR <buggeroff@spammer.com> wrote:
    hOn Sun, 04 Jun 2017 17:24:05 -0500, Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot >> >> > >>>net
    dot nz> wrote:



    http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/93340233/with-his-london-terror-attack-tweets-donald-trump-embarrasses-himself--and-america--once-again
    He is not just out of control, he is almost certainly mad and
    clearly
    full
    of
    hate. How can someone who thinks only of himself, pushes other
    world
    leaders
    out of the way and fires anybody who disagrees with him remain at >> >> > >>>>the
    helm
    of
    a
    country that believes it is a democracy (it isn't of course!)?
    Time he was impeached but will the "establishment" find the courage?
    Tony


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    You are as deranged about Trump as Rich80105 is about the National >> >> > >>>Party..

    God bless President Trump for pulling the US out of the climate
    fraud.

    Bill.
    Nonsense, only bigots and idiots think Trump is anything other than >> >> > >>inept.

    Tony


    Your attempt at a scathing put-down has got away from you again, Tony. >> >> > >It is of course possible to be inept and still make a correct
    political decision but your statement appears to indicate that the
    poster who described Trump as "not just out of control, he is almost >> >> > >certainly mad and clearly full of hate." must in your view be a bigot >> >> > >and an idiot.
    There is no logic to that failed attempt to have a go at me, something >> >> >you
    have
    tried many times and always with the same degree of abject failure.
    The difference between yourself and me is profound; I have ethics but I >> >> >doubt
    that you can even spell the word let alone practice it. Your record in >> >> >this
    newsgroup, and almost certainly everywhere else, is indefensible.

    As it happens I disagree with Bill's implicit approval for the USA
    pulling out of the Paris agreement (which is not of course related to >> >> > >the "claimate (sic) fraud"of the deniers of the scientific evidence of >> >> > >climate change), and I do agree with your descritions of him as inept >> >> > >and out of control; and thre are many other words that could be used >> >> > >to describe Trump.

    Try looking for where you agree with people rather than where you
    disagree - you may be surprised how often your views are shared.
    You really are a patronising clod; just like Trump you have no ethics >> >> >and
    stuff
    all intellect.
    Oh please do not tell me that I am resorting to abuse; you are by a
    country
    mile the most abusive poster to this group - you are a past master at >> >> >lies,
    sarcasm, innuendo and other primary school tactics. I am merely
    responding
    to
    your abusiveness.
    I feel genuinely sorry for all of the people you have deliberately and >> >> > maliciously hurt here and elsewhere, and no doubt for your entire
    worthless
    life. Your empathy for real people trying to do good is non-existent. >> >> >You
    clearly, and without doubt, incorrectly believe that anybody who
    disagrees
    with
    you deserves contempt and yet you complain that other people have a go >> >> >at
    you -
    why would that surprise you, after all you nearly always display
    yourself
    as a
    dreadful example of a human being.
    Don't you dare judge me, that would require you to have integrity which >> >> >is
    patently not the case. What a sad person you are!


    All of which may well have some merit.

    But you too easily forget that, not only is it "Rich" who, for better or >> >>for
    worse, supplies this group with more topics - worthy or otherwise - than >> >>any
    other poster; but also that you allow yourself to keep company with others >> >>caught in the "Rich" honeypot that compels you so fruitlessly to engage
    with
    him.

    In fact, your own reflex invective towards him only gives him further
    opportunities to goad. He baits, you bite. Every time.

    No - you've jumped unthinkingly to that conclusion as it suits your own
    perspective.

    "Rich" does not engage as that would require carefully reading, thinking
    and
    then writing. "Rich" just pours out by rote - no thought required nor
    employed.

    So ask yourself: who's really pulling who's chain, eh? And how do you >> >>feel
    about that?

    What you might also consider is this: why indulge him when your
    overwrought
    efforts amount to little more than self-flagellation?


    I'd say it's for the benefit of the wider readership.

    More than year ago I told you that your efforts in the "Rich" arena might >> >>well be worthy, but, ultimately, futile.

    So, as you read this, how much less futile do your efforts feel now than >> >>hitherto?

    Tony's doing a good job. The fact that many of your own prejudices align
    nicely with "Rich" is getting in your own way. Keith.
    Interestingly I believe that you and I do not agree on the "global warming" >> debate.

    Really? I'm very skeptical of the "science is settled" claim and anyone who >makes it as the science is clearly not settled. I'm automatically skeptical of >any faction that attempts to suppress debate. Both of these attributes are >displayed by some of the AGW groups.

    On the subject of man-made contribution to *climate change*, I tend to agree >with the IPCC that man-made pollution does contribute to climate change. >However the question is how much and that is not settled.

    The whole debate sees science being smothered by politics. As I posted >elsewhere I think Trump did the right thing by pulling out of the Paris accord.
    The USA is probably the only country that is steadily reducing >its emissions, >and China is the world's worst polluter, yet this accord benefits China over >the USA. What a crock.
    I have misunderstood your position, I think we agree.
    I distrust both extremes on this matter. I wish we could separate politics and fact and know where we really stand.
    I believe we should all be reducing our emissions, that has to be a good thing regardless of the science.
    I am prepared to debate it but tend not to because it is moot!
    Glabal warming is either real or not, but the entrenched views of those that >> believe in it or do not are such that we simply have to wait and see.
    Thanks for your understanding.
    Tony

    Tony

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