http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >Newshub this evening)
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on Newshub this evening)
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
In seeing the article above I missed the previous article by Tim
Watkin: http://pundit.co.nz/content/the-odonnell-raid-in-afghanistan-the-seeds-of-the-new-hager-book
It points out that back in 2011, Wayne Mapp chose to be honest to at
least a limited extent (on the substantial issue of whether there had
been a raid and effectively confirmed that NZ had been invovled) when
he was caught with a difficult question - he may not have known at
that stage that the raid had been such a fiasco, or that civilians had
been killed.
For National to still try to weasel out of a proper investigation
indicates the extent to which they have retreated into a bunker
mentality - with no moral compass to guide them, all they can do is
lie and hope - they have no ability to think things through - the only
thing that matters is trying to avoid embarassment. John Key going
today will harly be noticed - even National cannot find anything of
note that he achieved - but his esential immorality and casual lying
whenver he thought it expedient has corrupted the government he leaves behind.
On 22/03/2017 10:08 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
BULLSHIT! You and the usual stupid party's are wetting yourselves over Hager's piece of shit. Hell the dumb bastards even called the loopy
lefty activist a journalist!
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on Newshub this evening)
On 2017-03-22, Pooh <rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 22/03/2017 10:08 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:But look how he can push your buttons Pooh. You do need to get some smaller ones.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
BULLSHIT! You and the usual stupid party's are wetting yourselves over
Hager's piece of shit. Hell the dumb bastards even called the loopy
lefty activist a journalist!
On 2017-03-22, Pooh <rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 22/03/2017 10:08 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:But look how he can push your buttons Pooh. You do need to get some smaller ones.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
BULLSHIT! You and the usual stupid party's are wetting yourselves over
Hager's piece of shit. Hell the dumb bastards even called the loopy
lefty activist a journalist!
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other oneyou have come up with.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsWe are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who? https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such >>>information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other >>>one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who? >https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down theEvidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but until then it is just a story.
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to overWrong then and wrong now!
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not beAll political horseshit until evidence is provided.
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name. >http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out : >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:such
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
saidinformation prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
one you have come up with.Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>Says who? >https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,Suggest? What no evidence?
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down theEvidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but until then it is just a story.
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing inWrong then and wrong now!
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is >incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name. >http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out : >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Twone you have come up with.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who? https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name. http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
On 3/23/2017 5:30 PM, Gordon wrote:
On 2017-03-22, Pooh <rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:The best way to handle rat face is to ignore him after the first
On 22/03/2017 10:08 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:But look how he can push your buttons Pooh. You do need to get some
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>> Newshub this evening)
BULLSHIT! You and the usual stupid party's are wetting yourselves over
Hager's piece of shit. Hell the dumb bastards even called the loopy
lefty activist a journalist!
smaller
ones.
reaction to his diatribe/s.
Notice how he never mentions the small fact of Daesh hiding out in
civilian populations and the numbers of the innocent they kill.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name. http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 08:58:09 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>> >>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>> >>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>> >>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every
other one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>> >>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>> >>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
Ah, says Hagar. I won't get to concerned then.
Hager is referred to in the article, but it was written by Alison
Cole:
"Alison Cole is a New Zealand international human rights attorney and
an international criminal law investigator. She has worked at the >International Criminal Court and UN tribunals on Rwanda, former
Yugoslavia, Cambodia and Sierra Leone. Alison is an adjunct professor
at New York University."
Did you read the article, JohnO?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>> >>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Maybe. But innocent's accidentally killed is not a war crime. It's an >>unavoidable war tragedy largely caused by enemy combatants dressing as >>civilians and hiding among civilians.
Really? There do seem to be a number of issues to be investigated.
First did the SAS lie to their superioirs or to politicians about what >happened? (Or do you think the politicians were lying?) Were their
actions lawful? What was the "intelligence' relied on by those in
command, and why did it turn out to be so horribly wrong? Why was the
action continued when it was clear that those beng shot at were not >combatants?
Today further news: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824691
Wayne Mapp is not unnamed. It is the nature of whsitlebloing that some >protection is needed. You will notice that the denials fof the need
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
All the bad allegations are still from unnamed sources.
for an enquiry are getting either shrill from the blind supporters of >violence, or distinctly muted from those, including politicians, that
realise it is needed . . .
Are you trying to condone our government not being told what happened?
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If there have been lies, they are from the military to the government, not >>from the government.
Or what the basis for an action was?
The fact remains that Dickbot is spreading a baseless smear. No surprise, >>that's what it does.
Day by day it becomes more obvious that this is not a smear - it is an
issue that calls for investigation.
It happens, doesn't mean it was deliberate. Evidence?
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
Just to help you since you appear not to have read this:
"A NZ Special Air Service soldier has confirmed civilians were killed
in a 2010 raid carried out by the unit and says the truth is widely
known among the elite military group.
The soldier told the Herald the two people found shot dead were killedIt happens, doesn't mean it was deliberate. Evidence?
by NZSAS marksmen who believed they were acting under "Rules of
Engagement" governing their actions on the battlefield.
"They have taken out two," he said.It emerged - ie after the fact!
He said the other four people killed died in a barrage of fire from
United States aircraft called in by a New Zealander operating as the
joint terminal air controller - the person responsible for directing
air support.
The soldier said it emerged no combatants were identified on the
battlefield.
But he said the lack of an obvious opposing force contradicted theYour personal attacks continue I see!
soldiers' expectation based on the United States-sourced intelligence
used to frame the Rules of Engagement and the raid itself."
When denial and distracting dopn;t work, see if you can derail the
But if you are looking for fake news:
Our very own "Chemical Mike"http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
As always, Dickbot operates at cartoon level.
discussion by making a personal attack - have you been reading a CT >text-book, JohnO?
On Friday, 24 March 2017 08:58:09 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:one you have come up with.
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
Ah, says Hagar. I won't get to concerned then.
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >> >>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Maybe. But innocent's accidentally killed is not a war crime. It's an unavoidable war tragedy largely caused by enemy combatants dressing as civilians and hiding among civilians.
Wayne Mapp is not unnamed. It is the nature of whsitlebloing that some protection is needed. You will notice that the denials fof the need
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
All the bad allegations are still from unnamed sources.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If there have been lies, they are from the military to the government, not from the government.Are you trying to condone our government not being told what happened?
The fact remains that Dickbot is spreading a baseless smear. No surprise, that's what it does.
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
When denial and distracting dopn;t work, see if you can derail the
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
As always, Dickbot operates at cartoon level.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >Newshub this evening)
On Thu, 23 Mar 2017 15:06:45 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>one you have come up with.
wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 08:58:09 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>Says who?
Ah, says Hagar. I won't get to concerned then.
Hager is referred to in the article, but it was written by Alison
Cole:
"Alison Cole is a New Zealand international human rights attorney and
an international criminal law investigator. She has worked at the International Criminal Court and UN tribunals on Rwanda, former
Yugoslavia, Cambodia and Sierra Leone. Alison is an adjunct professor
at New York University."
Did you read the article, JohnO?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Maybe. But innocent's accidentally killed is not a war crime. It's an unavoidable war tragedy largely caused by enemy combatants dressing as civilians and hiding among civilians.
Really? There do seem to be a number of issues to be investigated.
First did the SAS lie to their superioirs or to politicians about what happened? (Or do you think the politicians were lying?) Were their
actions lawful? What was the "intelligence' relied on by those in
command, and why did it turn out to be so horribly wrong? Why was the
action continued when it was clear that those beng shot at were not combatants?
Today further news: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824691
Wayne Mapp is not unnamed. It is the nature of whsitlebloing that some protection is needed. You will notice that the denials fof the need
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
All the bad allegations are still from unnamed sources.
for an enquiry are getting either shrill from the blind supporters of violence, or distinctly muted from those, including politicians, that
realise it is needed . . .
Are you trying to condone our government not being told what happened?
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If there have been lies, they are from the military to the government, not from the government.
Or what the basis for an action was?
The fact remains that Dickbot is spreading a baseless smear. No surprise, that's what it does.
Day by day it becomes more obvious that this is not a smear - it is an
issue that calls for investigation.
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
Just to help you since you appear not to have read this:
"A NZ Special Air Service soldier has confirmed civilians were killed
in a 2010 raid carried out by the unit and says the truth is widely
known among the elite military group.
The soldier told the Herald the two people found shot dead were killed
by NZSAS marksmen who believed they were acting under "Rules of
Engagement" governing their actions on the battlefield.
"They have taken out two," he said.
He said the other four people killed died in a barrage of fire from
United States aircraft called in by a New Zealander operating as the
joint terminal air controller - the person responsible for directing
air support.
The soldier said it emerged no combatants were identified on the
battlefield.
But he said the lack of an obvious opposing force contradicted the
soldiers' expectation based on the United States-sourced intelligence
used to frame the Rules of Engagement and the raid itself."
When denial and distracting dopn;t work, see if you can derail the
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
As always, Dickbot operates at cartoon level.
discussion by making a personal attack - have you been reading a CT text-book, JohnO?
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>Asking a few questions may not be too hard, but perhaps letting the International Criminal Court do an investigation may be cheaper in
wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>Newshub this evening)
I think.
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
I think.
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:51:01 +1300, Sam <open-minded@fairness.here>It is yet to be seen whether our reputation would be damaged - you
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>Asking a few questions may not be too hard, but perhaps letting the >International Criminal Court do an investigation may be cheaper in
wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were >>>systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>Newshub this evening)
I think.
short term dollar terms - although perhaps not good for our
reputation.
Mortgage rates will start to rise, already happening, and that will
become an election discussion but it really should not because
governments can't do anything about it.
On 3/25/2017 4:51 PM, Sam wrote:Mortgage rates will start to rise, already happening, and that will
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>The 'housing shortage' has run its course.
wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
I think.
This is the next shock horror to take liebor voters attention away from
their leaders dismal polling..
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 20:01:13 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>Interestingly the President of the RNZRSA is in favour of a review but he clearly indicates that he is not concerned that the
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:51:01 +1300, Sam <open-minded@fairness.here>It is yet to be seen whether our reputation would be damaged - you
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:Asking a few questions may not be too hard, but perhaps letting the >>International Criminal Court do an investigation may be cheaper in
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least >>>>six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were >>>>systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>Newshub this evening)
I think.
short term dollar terms - although perhaps not good for our
reputation.
don't know, you are guessing or something.
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 20:01:13 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:51:01 +1300, Sam <open-minded@fairness.here>It is yet to be seen whether our reputation would be damaged - you
wrote:
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:Asking a few questions may not be too hard, but perhaps letting the >>International Criminal Court do an investigation may be cheaper in
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least >>>>six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were >>>>systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>Newshub this evening)
I think.
short term dollar terms - although perhaps not good for our
reputation.
don't know, you are guessing or something.
Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:such
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
saidinformation prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
one you have come up with.Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>Says who? >https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,Suggest? What no evidence?
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down theEvidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but until then it is just a story.
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing inWrong then and wrong now!
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is >incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name. >http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out : >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news: >http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >> >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >> >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >> >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the InternationalSays who?
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >> >>>
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >> >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >> >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >> >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >> >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every
other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the InternationalSays who?
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >> >>>
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >> >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I
said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>>>> *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>>Says who?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >>> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>> on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
+1
Sam <open-minded@fairness.here> wrote:I can see why the RSA might want the whole thing put away for good.
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 20:01:13 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com>Interestingly the President of the RNZRSA is in favour of a review but he >clearly indicates that he is not concerned that the
wrote:
On Sat, 25 Mar 2017 16:51:01 +1300, Sam <open-minded@fairness.here> >>>wrote:It is yet to be seen whether our reputation would be damaged - you
On Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:28 +1300, Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:Asking a few questions may not be too hard, but perhaps letting the >>>International Criminal Court do an investigation may be cheaper in
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-ofwe should wait for some proof before we spend a fortune on an enquiry
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents >>>>>compelling evidence that our SAS was responsible for killing at least >>>>>six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were >>>>>systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>just more astute than English and his current ministers.
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>Newshub this evening)
I think.
short term dollar terms - although perhaps not good for our
reputation.
don't know, you are guessing or something.
"story" is true. BJ Clark had a distinguished military career and has served >the RSA well for many years. His integrity is such that if the "story" turns >out to be true he would want that truth to be told for the sake of the RSA and >all serving and retired members of our distinguished military. Equally if it is
wrong he would want that to be clear and the storytellers shownup for what they
are. I suspect he will get his wish. An unintelligent observer would probably >assume that this means there may be truth in the "story", someone with more >understanding would immediately see that he is trying to get rid of the >innuendo and stupid assumptions and get this over with. I applaud him for doing
the right thing. Some will of course continue to try to make political capital >out of this; I note that the Labour party seems to be not doing that. Right or >wrong Hager and company are transparently culpable sensationalist hacks >(opinion!).
Tony
A senipr lawyer was present so are Hager and his cohort suggesting that not only is the NZDF nasty and complicit but our legal fraternity is also?Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >> >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >> >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >> >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every
other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the InternationalSays who?
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >> >>>
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >> >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I
said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90892328/live-defence-force-hits-back-at-hit-and-run-claims
On 27/03/2017 10:59 a.m., Tony wrote:I met General Keating several years ago briefly. It was a semi formal meeting involving the RNZRSA. I think he was Brigadier at the time.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents >>>>>>>> compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>>>>> *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >>>>>>> such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>>>>>> other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>>>Says who?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newshttps://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >>>>> most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >>>>> fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >>>>> directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>>> on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I >>>>> said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>>>> require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>>>> $20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >>>>> step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >>>>> tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
Our very own "Chemical Mike"http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>> basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right >>>either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in >>anticipation
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and >> reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Listening to Keating Hager seems to have written another fairy story
again. Dumb bugger didn't get the village names right though the names
of those killed were fairly accurate. Even though it seems many weren't
the innocent civilians Hager claims them to be. But then I place Hager
in the same bucket as I do Rich. Mainly because bullshit is good for the >garden and shouldn't be wasted ;)
Pooh
Pooh
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:anticipation
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>>>> *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >>>>>> such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>>>>> other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >>> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>> on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I >>>> said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most
basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
On 3/27/2017 9:51 AM, Mutlley wrote:+3
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:+2
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com
wrote:
Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and
handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . >>>>>>>> . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's
documentary in
*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government
had no such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as
every other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the
International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something
that the
Says who?
See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick
Gower on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >>>>> fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >>>>> directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
apporopriate but
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>>> on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I said >>>>> this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>>>> require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>>>> $20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >>>>> step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >>>>> tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the
most basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else
is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
+1
Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz> wrote:handing
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>> >
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and
."over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . .
in
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>> >>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary
the*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>> >>>other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>> >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that
on
Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower
butSuggest? What no evidence?See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>> >>ignore it...Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>> >this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>> >suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>> >rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >>> >most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
“subversion�€?, Iuntil then it is just a story.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>> >was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>> >on a list of “hostile individuals�€? that threaten
either:saidWrong then and wrong now!
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>> >then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>> >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>> >require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>> >$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>> >
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right
anticipationWhat concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and >reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Not help by the NZ media running this as their headline story every
hour.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>> >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>> >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>> >>>*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >>> >>>such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every
other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>> >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>> >>>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>> >>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
ignore it...
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but >>> until then it is just a story.
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals� that threaten “subversion�, I >>> >said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in anticipation >of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and >reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
On Monday, 27 March 2017 16:56:43 UTC+13, Mutlley wrote:in
Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz> wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >> >>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >> >>> >
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >> >>> >>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary
on*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >> >>> >>>other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International
Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.Suggest? What no evidence?See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >> >>> >>ignore it...Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >> >>> >this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >> >>> >rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >> >>> >was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >> >>> >on a list of “hostile individuals?€? that threaten “subversion?€?, I
said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >> >>> >then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >> >>> >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >> >>> >require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >> >>> >$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >> >>> >
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >> >>basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in anticipation
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and >> >reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Not help by the NZ media running this as their headline story every
hour.
Hagar's story is falling apart faster and more humorously than the Greenwald/Dotcom email story.
The NZDF has just presented a comprehensive rebutment at their news conference. They even have lawyers embedded in Afghanistan to maintain legal oversight of operations. Totally buttoned down.
Hagar FAIL. Is it the 3rd one? Corngate FAIL. Dirty Politics FAIL. Hit and Miss FAIL.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:12:13 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>wrote:
wrote:
On Monday, 27 March 2017 16:56:43 UTC+13, Mutlley wrote:
Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz> wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >> >>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net>
handing
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and
. ."over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. .
or
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician,
documentary injust more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's
no*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had
everysuch
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as
InternationalotherNotice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the
theCriminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that
Gower on
Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick
toHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did choosesNewshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
heroes,ignore it...See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about
convincinglythis image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson
Thensuggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died.
apporopriate butrather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement wasSuggest? What no evidence?
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >> >>> >most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >> >>> >fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New >> >>> >Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >> >>> >directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants >> >>> >can be a war crime.
ituntil then it is just a story.
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over >> >>> >what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when
journalistswas revealed that the Defence Force included investigative
“subversion?€?, Ion a list of “hostile individuals?€? that threaten
job,said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its
orthen you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End ofWrong then and wrong now!
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission
mostcommission to those for whom they fight, then it should not beAll political horseshit until evidence is provided.
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >> >>> >require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >> >>> >$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is >> >>> >incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >> >>> >step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >> >>> >tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the
either:basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right
anticipationWhat concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960 >> >>
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in
andof some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there
Greenwald/Dotcom email story.reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Not help by the NZ media running this as their headline story every
hour.
Hagar's story is falling apart faster and more humorously than the
conference. They even have lawyers embedded in Afghanistan to maintain legal oversight of operations. Totally buttoned down.The NZDF has just presented a comprehensive rebutment at their news
Miss FAIL.Hagar FAIL. Is it the 3rd one? Corngate FAIL. Dirty Politics FAIL. Hit and
Strange how the government didn't get told this story either at the
time, or later when it was in the news in 2014 - and why did an SAS
soldier confirm the other story to The Herald?
(quite independent of
Hager and Stephenson)? Wayne Mapp was in Afghanistan at the time -
why did he confirm that cvilians had been killed and that he had
described the raid as a fiasco?
Why has the Defence force changed its
story from no civilians killed to perhaps there was?
Perhaps it is still reasonable to be a little cautious - after all the Defence forces have already lost one case to Stephenson . . .
Hagar's story is falling apart faster and more humorously than theGreenwald/Dotcom email story.
The NZDF has just presented a comprehensive rebutment at their newsconference. They even have lawyers embedded in Afghanistan to maintain legal oversight of operations. Totally buttoned down.
Hagar FAIL. Is it the 3rd one? Corngate FAIL. Dirty Politics FAIL. Hit andMiss FAIL.
Yes, people should be cautious. That's why even the Hagar friendly MSM hasdropped this whole story like they mistakenly picked up a dog turd. Was top of the news a couple of days ago but today, no story.
It's gone. Along with whatever shred of credibility Hagar had left.
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:in
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >> >>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >> >>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or
just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary
on*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >> >>>such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >> >>>other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >> >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >> >>>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower
butSuggest? What no evidence?See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newsHe evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >> >>ignore it...Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes,
this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly
suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then
rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
either:until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it
was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists
on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I >> >said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job,
then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or
commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL. http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90892328/live-defence-force-hits-back-at-hit-and-run-claimsA senipr lawyer was present so are Hager and his cohort suggesting that not only is the NZDF nasty and complicit but our legal fraternity is also?
The writers are hacks and should really do a job they can cope with.
Tony
On 3/28/2017 8:23 AM, JohnO wrote:
Yes, people should be cautious. That's why even the Hagar friendly MSM has dropped this whole story like they mistakenly picked up a dog turd. Was top of the news a couple of days ago but today, no story.You do realise that this is no barrier to his 'investigative' journalism. >There are still lies for him to tell and the possibility of a 'gotcha'
It's gone. Along with whatever shred of credibility Hagar had left.
story at every electoral cycle.
Just another fake news source
On Sun, 26 Mar 2017 21:12:13 -0700 (PDT), JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com>
wrote:
On Monday, 27 March 2017 16:56:43 UTC+13, Mutlley wrote:
Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz> wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>>>>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote: >>>>>>>>>> http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents >>>>>>>>>> compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were >>>>>>>>>> systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in
*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no
such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>>>>>>>> other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news >>>>>>> message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) : >>>>>>>
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>>>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>>>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a >>>>>>> fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>>>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the >>>>>>> track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >>>>>>> most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >>>>>>> fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that >>>>>>> appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New >>>>>>> Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >>>>>>> directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants >>>>>>> can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over >>>>>>> what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>>>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>>>>> on a list of “hostile individuals?€? that threaten “subversion?€?, I >>>>>>> said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in >>>>>>> places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>>>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of >>>>>>> story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under >>>>>>> which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of >>>>>>> story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>>>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>>>>>> require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>>>>>> $20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is >>>>>>> incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >>>>>>> step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >>>>>>> tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>>>> basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960 >>>>>
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in anticipation
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and
reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Not help by the NZ media running this as their headline story every
hour.
Hagar's story is falling apart faster and more humorously than the Greenwald/Dotcom email story.
The NZDF has just presented a comprehensive rebutment at their news conference. They even have lawyers embedded in Afghanistan to maintain legal oversight of operations. Totally buttoned down.
Hagar FAIL. Is it the 3rd one? Corngate FAIL. Dirty Politics FAIL. Hit and Miss FAIL.
Strange how the government didn't get told this story either at the
time, or later when it was in the news in 2014 - and why did an SAS
soldier confirm the other story to The Herald? (quite independent of
Hager and Stephenson)? Wayne Mapp was in Afghanistan at the time -
why did he confirm that cvilians had been killed and that he had
described the raid as a fiasco? Why has the Defence force changed its
story from no civilians killed to perhaps there was?
Perhaps it is still reasonable to be a little cautious - after all the Defence forces have already lost one case to Stephenson . . .
On Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:21:07 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote:
On 3/28/2017 8:23 AM, JohnO wrote:
Yes, people should be cautious. That's why even the Hagar friendly MSM has dropped this whole story like they mistakenly picked up a dog turd. Was top of the news a couple of days ago but today, no story.You do realise that this is no barrier to his 'investigative' journalism.
It's gone. Along with whatever shred of credibility Hagar had left.
There are still lies for him to tell and the possibility of a 'gotcha'
story at every electoral cycle.
Just another fake news source
Still a few questions to be answered http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2017/03/hit-run-author-to-nzdf-put-up-or-shut-up.html
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825881 http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/90926572/afghan-villagers-lawyer-says-more-information-supports-need-for-an-inquiry
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/90912575/labour-leader-andrew-little-still-supports-sas-inquiry-despite-defence-force-rebuttal
""The problem with the NZ Defence force is they, a few years ago, were denying there were civilian casualties, and then it was that, well, if
there were it was nothing to do with New Zealand, now it's there may
have been but it's unfounded.
"I think for the sake of their reputation and New Zealand's
reputation, we still need to know what the facts are and we still need
that independent inquiry."
Little said it would be "pretty disturbing" if Hager and Stephenson
had got the names or locations of the villages wrong.
However, their book could not be dismissed out of hand, as it had
given a "pretty comprehensive account" of the operation based in part
on interviews with serving soldiers.
An independent inquiry would be the best way to clear up confusion
about what happened on the night, Little said.
"What I see is a book which is comprehensive, it looks thoroughly
researched, it looks credible, and then what I hear is Tim Keating's responses which look equally credible, and obviously he's got sources
of information which the two authors don't have.
"But there are conflicts between the two accounts that may not be irreconcilable, but I think most New Zealanders would be concerned if
our soldiers were involved in a mission which even with the best of
intent, following all the rules of engagement you'd expect, has led to civilian casualties."
And these may still relevant: http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/03/patrick-gower-wayne-mapp-s-openness-shames-government-s-stonewalling.html
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/90771288/five-questions-the-government-needs-to-answer-on-afghanistan-raid-allegations
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90798790/afghan-villagers-engage-nz-lawyer-over-hit-and-run-sas-raid
On Monday, 27 March 2017 16:56:43 UTC+13, Mutlley wrote:Greenwald/Dotcom email story.
Tony <lizandtony at orcon dot net dot nz> wrote:
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>>>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
What concerns me most is that people will listen to trash like this.On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote: >>>>>>>>> http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents >>>>>>>>> compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in
*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >>>>>>>> such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>>>>>>> other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>>>>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news >>>>>> message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the >>>>>> track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >>>>>> most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >>>>>> fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that >>>>>> appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New >>>>>> Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >>>>>> directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants >>>>>> can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over >>>>>> what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>>>> on a list of “hostile individuals�€? that threaten “subversion�€?, I
said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under >>>>>> which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>>>>> require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>>>>> $20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is >>>>>> incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >>>>>> step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >>>>>> tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>>> basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960 >>>>
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
I can just see "them" rubbing their hands together and panting in anticipation
of some juicy fallout.
Instead they should be cherishing the brave guys that we sent out there and >>> reporting the great work they have done.
Trashy , sensationalist and amateur journalism at best.
Tony
Not help by the NZ media running this as their headline story every
hour.
Hagar's story is falling apart faster and more humorously than the
The NZDF has just presented a comprehensive rebutment at their newsconference. They even have lawyers embedded in Afghanistan to maintain legal oversight of operations. Totally buttoned down.
Hagar FAIL. Is it the 3rd one? Corngate FAIL. Dirty Politics FAIL. Hit andMiss FAIL.
On Monday, 27 March 2017 15:37:16 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:of bravery and service to NZ and an enviable reputation around the world, or a rat-faced weasel who pops up every three years just before an election with an attempt to smear
JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote: >>>> Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90892328/live-defence-force-hits-back-at-hit-and-run-claimsOn Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >>>>>Suggest? What no evidence?
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents >>>>>>>> compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing >>>>>>>> over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ." >>>>>>>>
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >>>>>>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary in >>>>>>> *2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >>>>>>> such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >>>>>>> other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >>>>>>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the >>>>>>>Says who?
https://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistanSee this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake news
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >>>>>> ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower on >>>>>>>> Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >>>>> this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >>>>> suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >>>>> rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the >>>>> most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to >>>>> fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has >>>>> directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >>>>> was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >>>>> on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I >>>>> said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >>>>> then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >>>>> commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and >>>>> require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some >>>>> $20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first >>>>> step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to >>>>> tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >>>>>
But if you are looking for fake news:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308Our very own "Chemical Mike"
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >>> basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
A senipr lawyer was present so are Hager and his cohort suggesting that not >> only is the NZDF nasty and complicit but our legal fraternity is also?
The writers are hacks and should really do a job they can cope with.
Tony
Who is the public going to believe? A NZDF with a long and honorable record
Now, who have the activist lefties aligned themselves with?years.
Slow learners, these lefties. No wonder they're no closer to power after 9
Hager is awful at research, he got the dirty politics research wrong, he got this wrong and he has the gall to call himself an investigative journalist. He is neither any good at investigation or journalism.Even his supporters are walking away now - he should be held to account for this travesty but I can't see how! If he wasn't a coward he would apologise to NZDF and the RSA.JohnO <johno1234@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, 24 March 2017 09:55:18 UTC+13, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
A senipr lawyer was present so are Hager and his cohort suggesting that not >> only is the NZDF nasty and complicit but our legal fraternity is also?Rich80105<rich80105@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, 24 Mar 2017 08:05:50 +1300, george152 <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote: >> >> >
On 3/23/2017 7:50 PM, JohnO wrote:
On Wednesday, 22 March 2017 22:08:14 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
"Nicky Hager and John Stephenson’s book, Hit & Run, presents
compelling evidence
Un-named sources. Hardly compelling.
that our SAS was responsible for killing at least
six Afghani civilians, wounding at least another fifteen, and handing
over a man to be tortured for information. And then we were
systematically lied to about what was being done in our name. . . ."
Wayne Mapp is either the last honest National Party politician, or >> >> >>>> just more astute than English and his current ministers.
Mapp is simply repeating what he say in Jon Stephenson's documentary >> >> >>>in
*2014*. He is unequivocal that he, and therefore the government had no >> >> >>>such
information prior to that.
No, his statement now goes further than the 2014 documentary:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11823449&ref=NZH_tw&ref=NZH_Tw
Notice how that will never be read by the lieborites.
So your anti government smear is as baseless and unfounded as every >> >> >>>other
one you have come up with.
Cant have the truth interfering with political dogma
We are coming closer to having an investigation by the International >> >> >>>> Criminal Court. The former Defence Minister doing something that the
Says who?
Suggest? What no evidence?See this from Andrew Geddis (and I doubt he would take a fake newshttps://www.vice.com/en_nz/article/could-new-zealand-be-heading-to-the-international-criminal-court-for-war-crimes-in-afghanistan
He evidently didn't get the fake news message or if he did chooses to >> >> >>ignore it...
government is not - being open with New Zealand (from Patrick Gower >> >> >>>>on
Newshub this evening)
Oh how authoritative.
message from anyone, including Bill English or the Pooh-troll) :
Now we have good reason to think that, as with all myths about heroes, >> >> >this image isn’t the full picture. Hager and Stephenson convincingly >> >> >suggest that our SAS became driven by a desire for revenge for a
fellow Kiwi and as a result Fatima and five other innocents died. Then >> >> >rather than confront this wrong, our SAS’s involvement was
deliberately hidden through a series of lies and obfuscations.
Evidence? When there is some evidence and enquiry might be apporopriate >> >>but
Why, then, does any of this matter to us some seven years down the
track? It matters first because we don’t yet know the answer to the
most important questions: who ordered the U.S. Apache helicopters to
fire into Khak Khuday Dad and why? Who fired the sniper shots that
appear to have killed two unarmed civilians fleeing the burning
village? Those matters require an urgent inquiry, for if it was New
Zealand soldiers on the ground who did so, then our SAS actually has
directly killed non-combatants. And directly killing non-combatants
can be a war crime.
until then it is just a story.
Wrong then and wrong now!
Second, the fact we as a people have been systemically lied to over
what our soldiers do in our name is intolerable. Back in 2013, when it >> >> >was revealed that the Defence Force included investigative journalists >> >> >on a list of “hostile individuals” that threaten “subversion”, I >> >> >said
this:
If me, or people like me, finding out what it is you are doing in
places like Afghanistan mean that the Defence Forces can't do its job, >> >> >then you shouldn't be in those places in the first place. End of
story. And if you can't accept that these are the conditions under
which you operate, then you shouldn't be running the show. End of
story.
I say that again now. If our SAS must dissemble and lie by omission or >> >> >commission to those for whom they fight, then it should not be
fighting. If military leaders and their political masters are
complicit in those lies, then we should follow the German example and
require their resignations.
For at a time when our defence forces are asking us to give them some
$20 billion from the public purse to upgrade their equipment, it is
incumbent on them to prove to us that they deserve it. And the first
step they must take in doing so is showing that we can trust them to
tell us just what it is that they do in our name.
http://pundit.co.nz/content/killing-in-the-name-of
And more news coming out :
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11824213 >> >> >
But if you are looking for fake news:
All political horseshit until evidence is provided.Our very own "Chemical Mike"http://www.nzherald.co.nz/national/news/video.cfm?c_id=1503075&gal_cid=1503075&gallery_id=173308
See also:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/HitandRunNZ?src=hash
for a bit of dark humour
and here from The Herald:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7iwQ1xVsAA22qt.jpg
Tony
Hagar's "evidence" seems to be limited to unnamed sources.
Meanwhile, NZDF reveals that Hagar and Stephenson can't even get the most >> >basic and fundamental details right, so no reason anything else is right
either:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11825960
Just another Hagar election year FAIL.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/90892328/live-defence-force-hits-back-at-hit-and-run-claims
The writers are hacks and should really do a job they can cope with.
Tony
Who is the public going to believe? A NZDF with a long and honorable record of >bravery and service to NZ and an enviable reputation around the world, or a >rat-faced weasel who pops up every three years just before an election with an >attempt to smear either the government, the public service or our brave >soldiers who are putting themselves in harm's way to help and protect others?
Now, who have the activist lefties aligned themselves with?
Slow learners, these lefties. No wonder they're no closer to power after 9 >years.
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