• Post Truth Politics

    From Rich80105@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, November 27, 2016 17:56:42
    With "post truth"accurately describing the communcation strategy of
    the New Zealand government as it becomes clear that the results of
    their policies are increasingly untenable, perhaps we need an Öffice
    of Budget Responsibility", to impartially assess the financial impact
    of policies from all political parties, not just election policies. _______________________________

    Brexiteers will trash anyone who gets in their way

    Martin Kettle

    The attack on the Office for Budget Responsibility reveals where power
    now lies. Leavers are the masters, and will flex their muscles at will


    Thursday 24 November 2016

    The Office for Budget Responsibility shines like a good deed in a
    naughty world. It was created as an independent statutory body in 2010
    to promote more trustworthy government. It was an excellent idea, was
    widely welcomed and has worked well. It has survived six and a half
    years. Now, though, it has been kneecapped in a back alley by Brexit
    provos and its brand has been trashed in the anti-European pressıs
    embrace of post-truth politics.

    It may survive the encounter. Let us hope that it does. But this
    weekıs hit-and-run attack means the age of OBR innocence is over. Its
    cautious forecasts about the impact of Brexit on the British economy
    had barely been reported by Chancellor Philip Hammond on Wednesday
    before Brexiteers decided the OBR had to be done over for displaying insufficient optimism in the cause.

    ³Ridiculous and wrong,² said one anonymous cabinet minister of the
    OBRıs extremely sober estimate that Brexit may cost Britain £59bn over
    the coming five years. ³Not worth the paper it is written on,² said
    another, or possibly the same minister. ³Another gloom and doom
    scenario² complained the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith.
    ³Lunatic,² said Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The Daily Mail, which led the cheerleading when George Osborne set up
    the OBR and abolished what he called Gordon Brownıs ³fictional²
    forecasts, takes a diametrically opposite view now. This week the Mail
    took the lead in working the OBR over. You couldnıt believe anything
    coming from a body with such an appalling record as the OBR, run by
    ³its Europhile chairman Robert Chote², the Mail opined on Thursday.

    But what is the crime for which the OBR stands accused? Simply that it
    stated, on the basis of the facts at its disposal, that there are many uncertainties about the impact of Brexit on the economy. What rational
    person could disagree with that? Yet the OBRıs list of basic
    assumptions in its 260-page report on the economic and fiscal outlook
    this week are not exactly controversial: the UK to leave the EU in
    2019; slower import and export growth in the transitional period; a
    tighter migration regime.

    Itıs true, the OBR has been very circumspect in its forecast. It does
    not, for example, predict any specifically Brexit-related job losses
    in the period up to 2021. That will strike many as a heroically sunny assumption, fully worthy of a medal from Liam Fox. But it is a good
    reminder that Chote and his colleagues have erred on the side of
    caution in their latest forecasts. Their message is that many things
    are possible, from a doubling of current growth rates to the
    disappearance of growth altogether amid a fresh recession.

    Looking at the way the OBR hedges every statement about Brexit in its
    report, some may suspect Chote has been nobbled to say too little.
    Certainly thatıs the impression one gets when reading that the OBR, in accordance with its legal obligation to make its forecasts on the
    basis of current government policy, has been told as little as the
    rest of us about the May governmentıs negotiating position on Brexit.
    The real problem is that the forecast reflects the data: uncertainty
    in, uncertainty out.

    Itıs important to remember this is inherent in the task of
    forecasting. No one can predict the future. That includes the OBR. As
    the late Denis Healey, Labourıs chancellor in the 1970s, once put it:
    ³Like long-term weather forecasts, economic forecasts are better than
    nothing, but their origin lies in extrapolation from a partially known
    past through an unknown present to an unknowable future, according to
    theories about the causal relationships between certain economic
    variables which are hotly disputed by academic economists, and may in
    fact change from country to country or from decade to decade.²

    The most important words in what Healey wrote are ³better than
    nothing². Forecasts are inherently uncertain. They often, even
    routinely, prove to be wrong. But that does not make them useless or
    dishonest. If history, as Coleridge said, is a lantern on the stern of
    a ship ploughing forward across the sea through pitch darkness, the
    forecast is like a nautical chart in that same nocturnal voyage. Itıs
    a guide to action and options based on recent previous experience, not
    a guarantee of a safe passage.

    The problem to which the OBR was intended to be a solution was that
    until 2010 the forecasts were so often tweaked and spun for political
    reasons that they had lost all credibility. In the absence of an
    independent fiscal authority to reckon with, the Treasury simply
    redefined the problems that it was setting itself. Gordon Brown became notorious for this. Alistair Darling flirted with setting up an
    independent forecaster in 2008 because the financial crisis was making
    a nonsense of the governmentıs own forecasts.

    When Osborne set up the OBR two years later, Darling backed him. His
    then deputy, David Laws, wrote later that it was an uncontroversial
    reform.

    And so it was, six years ago. But it reckoned without the
    transformation of Brexit. Brexit was a decision taken for powerful
    emotional reasons. It was a revolt against what the Daily Mail now
    relentlessly dubs the elite, by which it really means elected
    politicians of every stripe, even though the Mail itself is infinitely
    more powerful than most institutions, not just media institutions, in
    this country. So the facts in the forecasts are no longer just the
    facts, as they were before the referendum, but the eliteıs facts,
    politiciansı facts, facts that should not be believed.

    This is a deeply disturbing change, and this week has produced an
    episode that is emblematic of it. The trashing of the OBRıs
    credibility has happened now, rather than before, because Brexit has
    empowered it. If the facts seem to be at odds with Brexit, as the very carefully and conditionally expressed facts in the OBR report are,
    then in Brexiteer eyes the fault does not and could not possibly lie
    with Brexit, which is by definition beyond challenge, but with the
    facts ­ and in particular with those who report or believe the facts.

    The Brexiteers are doing this because they can. The only fact they
    believe in is the result of the referendum. Nothing else matters to
    them. And, for now, they command the arena in which every political
    argument is conducted, even if they do not command the argument. The
    attempt to humble the OBR is intended as a reminder to Hammond and
    Theresa May that the Brexiteers are masters now, and will be so until
    they are stopped.

    İ Guardian 2016

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From Pooh@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, November 27, 2016 19:17:32
    On 27/11/2016 5:56 p.m., Rich80105 wrote:
    With "post truth"accurately describing the communcation strategy of
    the New Zealand government as it becomes clear that the results of
    their policies are increasingly untenable, perhaps we need an Öffice
    of Budget Responsibility", to impartially assess the financial impact
    of policies from all political parties, not just election policies. _______________________________

    Brexiteers will trash anyone who gets in their way

    Martin Kettle

    The attack on the Office for Budget Responsibility reveals where power
    now lies. Leavers are the masters, and will flex their muscles at will


    Thursday 24 November 2016

    The Office for Budget Responsibility shines like a good deed in a
    naughty world. It was created as an independent statutory body in 2010
    to promote more trustworthy government. It was an excellent idea, was
    widely welcomed and has worked well. It has survived six and a half
    years. Now, though, it has been kneecapped in a back alley by Brexit
    provos and its brand has been trashed in the anti-European pressıs
    embrace of post-truth politics.

    It may survive the encounter. Let us hope that it does. But this
    weekıs hit-and-run attack means the age of OBR innocence is over. Its cautious forecasts about the impact of Brexit on the British economy
    had barely been reported by Chancellor Philip Hammond on Wednesday
    before Brexiteers decided the OBR had to be done over for displaying insufficient optimism in the cause.

    ³Ridiculous and wrong,² said one anonymous cabinet minister of the
    OBRıs extremely sober estimate that Brexit may cost Britain £59bn over
    the coming five years. ³Not worth the paper it is written on,² said
    another, or possibly the same minister. ³Another gloom and doom
    scenario² complained the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith.
    ³Lunatic,² said Jacob Rees-Mogg.

    The Daily Mail, which led the cheerleading when George Osborne set up
    the OBR and abolished what he called Gordon Brownıs ³fictional²
    forecasts, takes a diametrically opposite view now. This week the Mail
    took the lead in working the OBR over. You couldnıt believe anything
    coming from a body with such an appalling record as the OBR, run by
    ³its Europhile chairman Robert Chote², the Mail opined on Thursday.

    But what is the crime for which the OBR stands accused? Simply that it stated, on the basis of the facts at its disposal, that there are many uncertainties about the impact of Brexit on the economy. What rational
    person could disagree with that? Yet the OBRıs list of basic
    assumptions in its 260-page report on the economic and fiscal outlook
    this week are not exactly controversial: the UK to leave the EU in
    2019; slower import and export growth in the transitional period; a
    tighter migration regime.

    Itıs true, the OBR has been very circumspect in its forecast. It does
    not, for example, predict any specifically Brexit-related job losses
    in the period up to 2021. That will strike many as a heroically sunny assumption, fully worthy of a medal from Liam Fox. But it is a good
    reminder that Chote and his colleagues have erred on the side of
    caution in their latest forecasts. Their message is that many things
    are possible, from a doubling of current growth rates to the
    disappearance of growth altogether amid a fresh recession.

    Looking at the way the OBR hedges every statement about Brexit in its
    report, some may suspect Chote has been nobbled to say too little.
    Certainly thatıs the impression one gets when reading that the OBR, in accordance with its legal obligation to make its forecasts on the
    basis of current government policy, has been told as little as the
    rest of us about the May governmentıs negotiating position on Brexit.
    The real problem is that the forecast reflects the data: uncertainty
    in, uncertainty out.

    Itıs important to remember this is inherent in the task of
    forecasting. No one can predict the future. That includes the OBR. As
    the late Denis Healey, Labourıs chancellor in the 1970s, once put it:
    ³Like long-term weather forecasts, economic forecasts are better than nothing, but their origin lies in extrapolation from a partially known
    past through an unknown present to an unknowable future, according to theories about the causal relationships between certain economic
    variables which are hotly disputed by academic economists, and may in
    fact change from country to country or from decade to decade.²

    The most important words in what Healey wrote are ³better than
    nothing². Forecasts are inherently uncertain. They often, even
    routinely, prove to be wrong. But that does not make them useless or dishonest. If history, as Coleridge said, is a lantern on the stern of
    a ship ploughing forward across the sea through pitch darkness, the
    forecast is like a nautical chart in that same nocturnal voyage. Itıs
    a guide to action and options based on recent previous experience, not
    a guarantee of a safe passage.

    The problem to which the OBR was intended to be a solution was that
    until 2010 the forecasts were so often tweaked and spun for political
    reasons that they had lost all credibility. In the absence of an
    independent fiscal authority to reckon with, the Treasury simply
    redefined the problems that it was setting itself. Gordon Brown became notorious for this. Alistair Darling flirted with setting up an
    independent forecaster in 2008 because the financial crisis was making
    a nonsense of the governmentıs own forecasts.

    When Osborne set up the OBR two years later, Darling backed him. His
    then deputy, David Laws, wrote later that it was an uncontroversial
    reform.

    And so it was, six years ago. But it reckoned without the
    transformation of Brexit. Brexit was a decision taken for powerful
    emotional reasons. It was a revolt against what the Daily Mail now relentlessly dubs the elite, by which it really means elected
    politicians of every stripe, even though the Mail itself is infinitely
    more powerful than most institutions, not just media institutions, in
    this country. So the facts in the forecasts are no longer just the
    facts, as they were before the referendum, but the eliteıs facts, politiciansı facts, facts that should not be believed.

    This is a deeply disturbing change, and this week has produced an
    episode that is emblematic of it. The trashing of the OBRıs
    credibility has happened now, rather than before, because Brexit has empowered it. If the facts seem to be at odds with Brexit, as the very carefully and conditionally expressed facts in the OBR report are,
    then in Brexiteer eyes the fault does not and could not possibly lie
    with Brexit, which is by definition beyond challenge, but with the
    facts ­ and in particular with those who report or believe the facts.

    The Brexiteers are doing this because they can. The only fact they
    believe in is the result of the referendum. Nothing else matters to
    them. And, for now, they command the arena in which every political
    argument is conducted, even if they do not command the argument. The
    attempt to humble the OBR is intended as a reminder to Hammond and
    Theresa May that the Brexiteers are masters now, and will be so until
    they are stopped.

    İ Guardian 2016


    It's an article bout UK not NZ Rich.

    National is still beating Labour hands down in the polls and that's even
    when liddle Andy adds the Greens and Winnie the fools total to Labours
    pathetic performance (STILL less than 30%)

    I'm pretty sure you and liddle Andy the union stooge are smoking or
    drinking something pretty potent that has both of you believing your own propaganda. Centre left my arse! Caring for the ordinary people! Not
    draconian marxist muppets! MWAHAHA.

    All you and liddle Andy are is a couple of stupid comediennes incapable
    of understanding the pathos that your pronouncements are.

    Pooh

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)
  • From JohnO@3:770/3 to All on Sunday, November 27, 2016 00:15:48
    On Sunday, 27 November 2016 17:56:44 UTC+13, Rich80105 wrote:
    <snip irrelevant drivel>

    The bandying about of words such as post-truth and Brexiteers just continues to
    display how out of touch lefties like Dickbot really are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: Agency HUB, Dunedin - New Zealand | Fido<>Usenet Gateway (3:770/3)