RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount on the >Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US RC-135 >reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens of >thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian state >border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a strategic >reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it over the >Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with >international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the "risk of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as military >tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago via >diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black Sea, in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the Black Sea >until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks about >the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony Blinken >spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas and >French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised concerns over >what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US.
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the Interfax >news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we need >innit...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them about >"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their club >(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really all
about this time then??
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with
international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the "risk of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black Sea, in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks
about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony
Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US.
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the
Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we
need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying
around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's
called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if
they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their
club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will
back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a
troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with
international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the "risk of >>> an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago via >>> diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black Sea, in >>> line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks
about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony
Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for Russia >>> to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" in >>> the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did not >>> have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US.
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the
Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we
need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying
around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha
contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's
called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if
they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their
club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will
back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a
troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once
before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current
ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for russia to >prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing their >concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to put >pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more recently
there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't usually >back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least
publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed annex >unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of
russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being an >effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so let's
just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided they
now have no choice but to invade...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane
off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian state >>>> border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence Control >>>> Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it over >>>> the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with
international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the "risk
of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into
all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as
military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea, >>>> while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago
via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black Sea,
in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks
about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony
Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for
Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions"
in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did
not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US.
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the
Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we
need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying
around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha
contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them about >>>> "ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's
called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if
they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their
club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really
all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will
back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a
troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once
before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that
being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current
ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato
forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for russia
to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing their
concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to put
pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more recently
there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't
usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least
publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed annex
unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of
russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want
people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so let's
just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided they
now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at
all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on it's
own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they
fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow
and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is no Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its
gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the
UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed Trident
III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:57:49 +0100, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount on >>>>> the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US RC-135 >>>>> reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens of >>>>> thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the Russian >>>>> border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane
off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian state >>>>> border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence Control >>>>> Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it over >>>>> the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with
international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the "risk >>>>> of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into
all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as
military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black Sea, >>>>> while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago >>>>> via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black Sea, >>>>> in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the Black >>>>> Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks >>>>> about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony
Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas >>>>> and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for
Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President Tayyip >>>>> Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" >>>>> in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised concerns >>>>> over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did >>>>> not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US.
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay of >>>>> (their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the
Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we >>>>> need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying
around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha
contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them about >>>>> "ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, which >>>> just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's
called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if
they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their >>>>> club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really
all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will
back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a
troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once
before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that
being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current
ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato
forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for russia
to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing their >>> concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to put >>> pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more recently
there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't
usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least
publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed annex >>> unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of
russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want
people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so let's
just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided they >>> now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and
omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at
all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on it's
own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they
fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former
ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow
and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is no
Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its
gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the
UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed Trident
III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
### - ukraine can't fight for shit and have lost every skirmish with the >russians to date, to the point there was literally nada they could
actually do about losing crimea and the other new buffer zones along their >russian border... so much so, that i suspected something sly was then
gonna in the pipeline that time re slandering the russians in some fashion >(iow: that's what they (and the west) had been reduced to doing that time
in order to score any points at all... a whole month before something >actually happened? it seemed obvious to moi anyway what was coming)
that unless nato stepped in ukraine would likely be taken with hardly any >fuss at all + that's the real risk for the world if nato got involved, the >russians are no push-over (just ask napoleon or the germans hah!) plus
once started it would be very difficult to stop and they'd undoubtedly
wreck the entire planet between them in only 2 or 3 days, imho no one
would (or could) ever win such a war...
so let's just hope that saner minds prevail huh.
'blowjob' (laffing) is basically only a bumbling fool, a mere filing clerk >compared to someone like churchill for example heh... he being quickly
booted out of the job of foreign secretary for embarrassing the whole
nation for instance lol (what a fucking idiot! his hair has more
personality than he does? heh)
the uk investment in new nukes prolly isn't a coincidence though, we're a >good backup 'threat' these days but that's about all, to the point the uk >would literally vanish in a single day if we ever threw anything horrible
at russia, and that blowjob is just stupid enough to do so!
they're ALL totally insane imho thang, some just less so than others is >all...
so much so it's amazing we got this far, or even lasted this long!?
(am still surprised we didn't all go up in smoke long ago...)
they're not well on this planet haha :)))
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:24:21 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:57:49 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount >>>>>> on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations".
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US
RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens >>>>>> of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the
Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane >>>>>> off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian
state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern >>>>>> Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence
Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it
over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with
international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air
operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the
"risk
of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into
all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as
military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black
Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago >>>>>> via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black
Sea,
in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the
Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks >>>>>> about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony
Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko
Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for
Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President
Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative
actions"
in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised
concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did >>>>>> not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US. >>>>>>
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay >>>>>> of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the
Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we >>>>>> need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying
around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha
contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them
about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system,
which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's
called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if
they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their >>>>>> club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really >>>>>> all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will
back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a
troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the >>>>> Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we
need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once
before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that
being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current
ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato
forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for russia >>>> to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing
their
concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to
put
pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more recently >>>> there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't
usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least
publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed
annex
unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of
russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want
people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being
an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia
has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then
globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so let's >>>> just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided
they
now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and
omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at
all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on it's
own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they
fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former >>> ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow
and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is no
Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its
gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the
UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed Trident
III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
### - ukraine can't fight for shit and have lost every skirmish with the
russians to date, to the point there was literally nada they could
actually do about losing crimea and the other new buffer zones along
their
russian border... so much so, that i suspected something sly was then
gonna in the pipeline that time re slandering the russians in some
fashion
(iow: that's what they (and the west) had been reduced to doing that
time
in order to score any points at all... a whole month before something
actually happened? it seemed obvious to moi anyway what was coming)
Slider --> "Ukraine can't fight for shit..."
M McFaul US Ambassador to Russia --> "Ukraine ... has a very
formidable army".
Who to believe? Who to trust? Who would know?
Heck, I think Slider is believable, trustworthy and knows what he's
talking about.
I'll go with Slider...
/s
that unless nato stepped in ukraine would likely be taken with hardly
any
fuss at all + that's the real risk for the world if nato got involved,
the
russians are no push-over (just ask napoleon or the germans hah!) plus
once started it would be very difficult to stop and they'd undoubtedly
wreck the entire planet between them in only 2 or 3 days, imho no one
would (or could) ever win such a war...
No they won't. You think conventional limited territorial war using
PROXIES which is what the "rebels" in east Donbass are to the Russians
and the Ukrainians are to NATO and the US (and the UK) - will spill
straight away into unlimited thermonuclear inferno on a planetary
extinction scale?
Are you crazy, or just used to not thinking stuff through?
Why didn't the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, the US of Vietnam, the Russian invasion of Georgia, end up immediately in nuclear war against cities?
Any war in east Ukraine will be constrained to very limited
territorial objectives and gains. Mark my words. That's called
logic.
so let's just hope that saner minds prevail huh.
They have already. Russia doesn't like being surrounded by NATO and
NATO doesn't want Russians on their borders. The perfect solution is
a very limited show-war limited to territorial gains in east Donbass
so that NATO doesn't share a border with Russia and Russia doesn't
share a border with NATO.
'blowjob' (laffing) is basically only a bumbling fool, a mere filing
clerk
compared to someone like churchill for example heh... he being quickly
booted out of the job of foreign secretary for embarrassing the whole
nation for instance lol (what a fucking idiot! his hair has more
personality than he does? heh)
Yep, but his popularity is on the rise now that COVID has more or less
been subdued in the UK. While our (Australia's) border controls are
the envy of the infected world, BJ's mass vaccination is also the envy
of the world, much more effective than what we have here in Australia.
BJ will be around in the UK for a very long time.
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:07:40 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:21:41 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:24:21 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:57:49 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount >>>>>>>> on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations". >>>>>>>>
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US >>>>>>>> RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens >>>>>>>> of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the
Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian
warplane
off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian >>>>>>>> state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the
Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence >>>>>>>> Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a >>>>>>>> strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it >>>>>>>> over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with >>>>>>>> international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air >>>>>>>> operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the >>>>>>>> "risk
of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into >>>>>>>> all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as >>>>>>>> military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black >>>>>>>> Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days >>>>>>>> ago
via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black >>>>>>>> Sea,
in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the >>>>>>>> Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent >>>>>>>> weeks
about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony >>>>>>>> Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko >>>>>>>> Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for >>>>>>>> Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President >>>>>>>> Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative
actions"
in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised
concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that >>>>>>>> did
not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US. >>>>>>>>
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay >>>>>>>> of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the >>>>>>>> Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all >>>>>>>> we
need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying >>>>>>> around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha >>>>>>> contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them >>>>>>>> about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, >>>>>>> which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's >>>>>>> called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if >>>>>>> they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie. >>>>>>> Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join >>>>>>>> their
club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it
really
all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will >>>>>>> back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a >>>>>>> troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with >>>>>>> the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we >>>>>> need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once >>>>>> before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only >>>>>> 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that >>>>>> being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current >>>>>> ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato
forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for
russia
to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing >>>>>> their
concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to >>>>>> put
pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more
recently
there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't
usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least >>>>>> publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed >>>>>> annex
unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of >>>>>> russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want >>>>>> people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being >>>>>> an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia >>>>>> has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada >>>>>> we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then
globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so
let's
just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided >>>>>> they
now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and
omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at
all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on
it's
own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they
fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former >>>>> ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow >>>>> and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is
no
Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its >>>>> gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the >>>>> UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed
Trident
III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
### - ukraine can't fight for shit and have lost every skirmish with
the
russians to date, to the point there was literally nada they could
actually do about losing crimea and the other new buffer zones along
their
russian border... so much so, that i suspected something sly was then
gonna in the pipeline that time re slandering the russians in some
fashion
(iow: that's what they (and the west) had been reduced to doing that
time
in order to score any points at all... a whole month before something
actually happened? it seemed obvious to moi anyway what was coming)
Slider --> "Ukraine can't fight for shit..."
M McFaul US Ambassador to Russia --> "Ukraine ... has a very
formidable army".
Who to believe? Who to trust? Who would know?
Heck, I think Slider is believable, trustworthy and knows what he's
talking about.
I'll go with Slider...
/s
### - haha, you really shouldn't make the mistake of making this
personal
lest it then looks as though you've conceded the debate?
But I'm not, you're mistaken again. Regardless of who said what you
said, if it was Jesus himself, I would respond the same. So, as you
can see, it is not personal at all. You're too sensitive.
Rather, my response was to logically compare your comment with a better-qualified person's comment about the same topic - that Ukraine
indeed has a "very formidable army" and will therefore be no pushover.
You on the other hand think Ukraine will be a pushover and that,
Slider, is not correct.
I was a little facetious perhap luridly so in my "/s" but if any other
person had proferred the same opinion as you I would have responded,
as I said, the same.
And how on earth can you elicit from my point blank rebuttal of what
YOU said that I'm "conceding the debate"?
Firstly, it wasn't a debate. Secondly, I rebutted your opinion about Ukraine's armed forces with fact - the opinion of an ex-Ambassador to
Russia. No concession there mate.
i.e., i made those remarks/comments based on history and not on anything
personal, but on the fact that ukraine was totally unable to do anything
about it and as such then started demanding the west supply them with
arms
so they 'could' maybe do something about it... which the west refused
saying they couldn't supply them with offensive weapons because that
would
be too much of a provocation, ditto letting them join nato, so we sent
them some medical kits and gloves whatever and a few 'advisors',
meanwhile
denying that ukraine was the west's proxy...
There you go with the word "personal" again. I'm not being personal
at all. I'm pointing out that NOW in THIS MOMENT (not history)
Ukraine has a "very formidable army".
And it does.
iow: they've got an army yes, but which is nothing compared to the
resources available to the rebels in the south coming from russia...
Really? Is that so?
So far, there have been more combined Russian and rebel forces killed
than Ukraine Armed Forces combined with Ukraine National Guard.
All below deaths for period 6 April 2014 – 14 April 2021
Civilians 3,375 killed (312
foreign)
UAF, NGU and volunteer forces 4,525 killed
DPR and LPR forces 5,709 killed
Russian Armed Forces 400–500 killed
So apart from civilians, who are probably Russian speaking rebel sympathisers, there have been 4500 Ukrainian armed forces killed -v-
6200 combined rebel and Russian armed forces killed.
Logically (using reason) if the "resources available to the rebels"
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:21:41 +0100, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:24:21 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:57:49 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount >>>>>>> on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations". >>>>>>>
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US
RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens >>>>>>> of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the
Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian warplane >>>>>>> off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian >>>>>>> state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the Eastern >>>>>>> Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence
Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a
strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it >>>>>>> over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with >>>>>>> international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air >>>>>>> operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the
"risk
of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into
all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as
military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black >>>>>>> Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area.
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days ago >>>>>>> via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black >>>>>>> Sea,
in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the
Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent weeks >>>>>>> about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony >>>>>>> Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko >>>>>>> Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for >>>>>>> Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President
Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative
actions"
in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised
concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that did >>>>>>> not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US. >>>>>>>
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay >>>>>>> of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the >>>>>>> Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all we >>>>>>> need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying >>>>>> around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha >>>>>> contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them >>>>>>> about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system,
which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's >>>>>> called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if >>>>>> they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie.
Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join their >>>>>>> club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it really >>>>>>> all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will >>>>>> back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a >>>>>> troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with the >>>>>> Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we
need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once >>>>> before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only 2 >>>>> weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that >>>>> being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current >>>>> ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato
forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for russia >>>>> to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing
their
concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to >>>>> put
pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more recently >>>>> there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't
usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least >>>>> publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed
annex
unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of >>>>> russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want
people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being >>>>> an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia
has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada we >>>>> could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then
globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so let's >>>>> just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided
they
now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and
omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at
all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on it's >>>> own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they
fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former >>>> ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow
and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is no >>>> Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its
gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the
UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed Trident >>>> III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
### - ukraine can't fight for shit and have lost every skirmish with the >>> russians to date, to the point there was literally nada they could
actually do about losing crimea and the other new buffer zones along
their
russian border... so much so, that i suspected something sly was then
gonna in the pipeline that time re slandering the russians in some
fashion
(iow: that's what they (and the west) had been reduced to doing that
time
in order to score any points at all... a whole month before something
actually happened? it seemed obvious to moi anyway what was coming)
Slider --> "Ukraine can't fight for shit..."
M McFaul US Ambassador to Russia --> "Ukraine ... has a very
formidable army".
Who to believe? Who to trust? Who would know?
Heck, I think Slider is believable, trustworthy and knows what he's
talking about.
I'll go with Slider...
/s
### - haha, you really shouldn't make the mistake of making this personal >lest it then looks as though you've conceded the debate?
i.e., i made those remarks/comments based on history and not on anything >personal, but on the fact that ukraine was totally unable to do anything >about it and as such then started demanding the west supply them with arms
so they 'could' maybe do something about it... which the west refused
saying they couldn't supply them with offensive weapons because that would
be too much of a provocation, ditto letting them join nato, so we sent
them some medical kits and gloves whatever and a few 'advisors', meanwhile >denying that ukraine was the west's proxy...
iow: they've got an army yes, but which is nothing compared to the
resources available to the rebels in the south coming from russia...
that unless nato stepped in ukraine would likely be taken with hardly
any
fuss at all + that's the real risk for the world if nato got involved,
the
russians are no push-over (just ask napoleon or the germans hah!) plus
once started it would be very difficult to stop and they'd undoubtedly
wreck the entire planet between them in only 2 or 3 days, imho no one
would (or could) ever win such a war...
No they won't. You think conventional limited territorial war using
PROXIES which is what the "rebels" in east Donbass are to the Russians
and the Ukrainians are to NATO and the US (and the UK) - will spill
straight away into unlimited thermonuclear inferno on a planetary
extinction scale?
Are you crazy, or just used to not thinking stuff through?
### - drop the personal stuff ok? (which is ultimately only an invitation
to fight) or we'll have to end this conversation/debate? it's completely >unnecessary! (am i calling you names?? no! so just make your points
without adding any editorial, don't change the subject or haha i'll be
forced to think you've run out of material!)
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 04:15:45 +0100, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 01:07:40 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:21:41 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:24:21 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 02:57:49 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:06:54 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 15:29:40 +0100, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 05:15:27 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:
RUSSIA claims to have intercepted a US spy plane as tensions mount >>>>>>>>> on
the
Ukraine border amid the threat of "full-scale combat operations". >>>>>>>>>
Footage appears to show a MiG-31 fighter jet intercepting a US >>>>>>>>> RC-135
reconnaissance aircraft off the coast of Russia.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/14604909/russia-intercepted-us-spy-plane-tensions-mount-ukraine/
The incident comes as Russian President Vladimir Putin masses tens >>>>>>>>> of
thousands of troops and heavy military equipment close to the >>>>>>>>> Russian
border with Ukraine amid fears of "all-out-war".
The American plane is seen from the cockpit of the Russian
warplane
off
the coast of the Kamchatka peninsula, according to reports.
"To identify the air target and prevent violation of the Russian >>>>>>>>> state
border, a MiG-31 fighter from the air defence forces of the
Eastern
Military District was scrambled," the Russian National Defence >>>>>>>>> Control
Centre said.
"The crew of the Russian fighter identified the air target as a >>>>>>>>> strategic
reconnaissance aircraft RC-135 of the US Air Forceand escorted it >>>>>>>>> over
the
Pacific Ocean."
The statement said the Russians acted "in strict accordance with >>>>>>>>> international rules for the use of airspace".
"Violations of the state border were averted," it said.
In recent months, Russia has claimed NATO has intensified its air >>>>>>>>> operations near the Russian border with such flights posing the >>>>>>>>> "risk
of
an accidental escalation".
It comes amid fears the Russia-Ukraine crisis could "erupt into >>>>>>>>> all-out
war" within days after the Kremlin threatened to "end" Kiev as >>>>>>>>> military
tensions were pushed to breaking point.
The US is sending two warships through the Bosphorus to the Black >>>>>>>>> Sea,
while Russia is also boosting naval deployments in the area. >>>>>>>>>
Turkey's foreign ministry said: "A notice was sent to us 15 days >>>>>>>>> ago
via
diplomatic channels that two US warships would pass to the Black >>>>>>>>> Sea,
in
line with the Montreux Convention. The ships will remain in the >>>>>>>>> Black
Sea
until May 4."
Western and Ukrainian officials have raised concerns in recent >>>>>>>>> weeks
about
the Russian troop build-up along the border with Ukraine.
The concerns intensifed on Friday as US Secretary of State Antony >>>>>>>>> Blinken
spoke to his French and German counterparts.
The State Department said Blinken, German Foreign Minister Heiko >>>>>>>>> Maas
and
French Foreign Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian discussed the need for >>>>>>>>> Russia
to cease its military build-up and heated rhetoric.
Putin, during a telephone conversation with Turkey's President >>>>>>>>> Tayyip
Erdogan on Friday, accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative >>>>>>>>> actions"
in
the Donbass region.
And Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko raised >>>>>>>>> concerns
over
what he claimed was increasing Black Sea activity by powers that >>>>>>>>> did
not
have a coast line in the region - an apparent reference to the US. >>>>>>>>>
"The number of visits by NATO countries and the length of the stay >>>>>>>>> of
(their) warships have increased," he was quoted as saying by the >>>>>>>>> Interfax
news agency.
### - is something going on here again? i mean, christ that's all >>>>>>>>> we
need
innit...
There's *always* something going on. But no one wants nukes flying >>>>>>>> around, too much to lose - eg Putin's nice new billion dollar dacha >>>>>>>> contributed by his oligarch mates.
Nothing to see here, move on...
something's making russia unhappy anyway with comments from them >>>>>>>>> about
"ending kiev" seemingly coming out of the blue?
They don't like being cut off from the western financial system, >>>>>>>> which
just might happen to them if they invade the Donbas. I think it's >>>>>>>> called the SWIFT system. It would fuck up Russia quite royally if >>>>>>>> they were excluded from the Western banking system.
ANy fight with Ukraine is just a fight between Slavs. No biggie. >>>>>>>> Won't go nuclear.
can't imagine it's the threat of nato inviting ukraine to join >>>>>>>>> their
club
(something that would certainly set russia off) so wtf is it >>>>>>>>> really
all
about this time then??
NATO has not invited them to join and probably won't. Turkey will >>>>>>>> back up Ukraine and the Turks rarely lose in war. They once had a >>>>>>>> troop called the Jannisaries, but that's another story...
no doubt we'll find out at some point huh...
Nah. Pretty boring really. What's happening in the Pacific with >>>>>>>> the
Chinese is far more interesting. Philippines in particular.
### - well let's just hope you're right, because the last thing we >>>>>>> need
right now is a conflict with russia over ukraine, who announced once >>>>>>> before that if push ever came to shove they could take kiev in only >>>>>>> 2
weeks should they ever need to do so... one criterion given for that >>>>>>> being
if say nato welcomed ukraine into the club thus removing the current >>>>>>> ukraine buffer zone between russian and the ever-encroaching nato >>>>>>> forces...
whatever's actually going on it seems serious enough anyway for
russia
to
prepare for invasion along their borders unless whatever's causing >>>>>>> their
concern fizzles out/backs down again...
i.e., we know kiev is backed by the west anyway who're using them to >>>>>>> put
pressure on russia, so am just wondering what's happened more
recently
there to rake it all up again? the risk being that russia doesn't >>>>>>> usually
back down and sticks to what they said/affirmed previously (at least >>>>>>> publicly anyway) so if we push them too far they might then indeed >>>>>>> annex
unkraine because they said before that they would...
(methinks is maybe just part of the wests' propaganda war because of >>>>>>> russia's vaccine apparently being so successful and they don't want >>>>>>> people
to maybe start liking them because of it etc, this then merely being >>>>>>> an
effort to keep the bad guys looking like the bad guys...)
the problem being... that we all wake up one morning to hear russia >>>>>>> has
just invaded ukraine and is now moving on kiev... and there's nada >>>>>>> we
could do about it short of all out war involving nato?
perforce it would start locally and spread nationally and then
globally
too because no fucker would wanna back down/make concessions, so >>>>>>> let's
just hope we haven't already crossed that line and russia's decided >>>>>>> they
now have no choice but to invade...
The mistake you're making is thinking that Russia is all mighty and >>>>>> omnipotent militarily and Ukraine has no army or will to resist at >>>>>> all.
That is completely incorrect.
Ukraine has a very formidable military and it will be fighting on
it's
own territory - look what happened to Napoleon and Hitler when they >>>>>> fought, very successfully and with superior armies, on Russian
territory.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-michael-mcfaul-b1830293.html
"Ongoing tensions between Russia and Ukraine could result in a
full-blown war between “two very formidable armies,” the US’ former
ambassador to Russia has warned."
That's TWO formidable armies, not just ONE Slider. It will be no
walkover.
Also, what will Putin do when the body bags start arriving in Moscow >>>>>> and the other big cities? Not a very good look. I think he is
posturing in order to signal NATO not to enrol Ukraine. Ukraine is >>>>>> no
Georgia or Estonia or Latvia - and Russia could conceivably lose its >>>>>> gains in Donbass or even Crimea.
And Biden and his hawks could come in or the entirety of NATO.
And, it seems your BJ (no, not blowjob) is very anti-Russia, and the >>>>>> UK has very tidy nuclear boomer type subs with heaps of MIRVed
Trident
III's all aimed at Russian cities.
Nope, if Ukraine does nothing, then Russia will do nothing.
### - ukraine can't fight for shit and have lost every skirmish with >>>>> the
russians to date, to the point there was literally nada they could
actually do about losing crimea and the other new buffer zones along >>>>> their
russian border... so much so, that i suspected something sly was then >>>>> gonna in the pipeline that time re slandering the russians in some
fashion
(iow: that's what they (and the west) had been reduced to doing that >>>>> time
in order to score any points at all... a whole month before something >>>>> actually happened? it seemed obvious to moi anyway what was coming)
Slider --> "Ukraine can't fight for shit..."
M McFaul US Ambassador to Russia --> "Ukraine ... has a very
formidable army".
Who to believe? Who to trust? Who would know?
Heck, I think Slider is believable, trustworthy and knows what he's
talking about.
I'll go with Slider...
/s
### - haha, you really shouldn't make the mistake of making this
personal
lest it then looks as though you've conceded the debate?
But I'm not, you're mistaken again. Regardless of who said what you
said, if it was Jesus himself, I would respond the same. So, as you
can see, it is not personal at all. You're too sensitive.
Rather, my response was to logically compare your comment with a
better-qualified person's comment about the same topic - that Ukraine
indeed has a "very formidable army" and will therefore be no pushover.
You on the other hand think Ukraine will be a pushover and that,
Slider, is not correct.
I was a little facetious perhap luridly so in my "/s" but if any other
person had proferred the same opinion as you I would have responded,
as I said, the same.
And how on earth can you elicit from my point blank rebuttal of what
YOU said that I'm "conceding the debate"?
### - conceding the debate was solely to do with resorting to impugning my >ability to reason correctly, as in: "when the debate is lost slander
becomes the tool of the loser"
so if you start going 'that' way in a discussion (resorting to name
calling etc thus making it personal and thus effectively changing the >subject) then that's what am probably gonna think...
Firstly, it wasn't a debate. Secondly, I rebutted your opinion about
Ukraine's armed forces with fact - the opinion of an ex-Ambassador to
Russia. No concession there mate.
### - my point re that was clear enough, 'actual history' and track record >suggesting that every time ukraine tried to retake their southern regions >they failed! every time! so much so they started asking for backup from
nato and supplies from the US? and then eventually they resorted to the
dirty tricks propaganda dept. of then blackening russia's name via the
mh17 incident, a situation i still think they personally created for that >express purpose coz they couldn't do fuck all else!
i.e., i made those remarks/comments based on history and not on anything
### - conceding the debate was solely to do with resorting to impugning
my
ability to reason correctly, as in: "when the debate is lost slander
becomes the tool of the loser"
You maintain Ukrainian armed forces are insignificant and I quoted a respected ex-USA Ambassador to Russia who stated the opposite. I
assume that he has access to more and better information than you do
given his background in high government.
I simply stated that I take his opinion over yours. You haven't even provided me with any statistics, figures, references or anything else
on which to support your contention that Ukrainian forces are
insignificant.
Therefore, it is reasonable and logical for me to discount your
opinion and accept the opinion of the ex-USA Ambassador to Russia.
Simple as that. I don't see any vestige of "slander" or "impugning
your ability to reason correctly". I simply rest on the facts and on
that basis, you are wrong and I am right.
In your boots, I would accept the facts gracefully and concede.
Because I don't really care and the facts are the facts and this is
just usenet, after all :)
so if you start going 'that' way in a discussion (resorting to name
calling etc thus making it personal and thus effectively changing the
subject) then that's what am probably gonna think...
I have no idea what you're talking about. I stated facts. You are
trying to distort what I said and what I meant. You don't like losing
and that, if I'm right, can be a significant character flaw.
Gentlemen know when it's time to concede and they do so, gracefully.
Firstly, it wasn't a debate. Secondly, I rebutted your opinion about
Ukraine's armed forces with fact - the opinion of an ex-Ambassador to
Russia. No concession there mate.
### - my point re that was clear enough, 'actual history' and track
record
suggesting that every time ukraine tried to retake their southern
regions
they failed! every time! so much so they started asking for backup from
nato and supplies from the US? and then eventually they resorted to the
dirty tricks propaganda dept. of then blackening russia's name via the
mh17 incident, a situation i still think they personally created for
that
express purpose coz they couldn't do fuck all else!
Aren't we talking about your dismissive opinion of the inadequacy of
the Ukrainian Armed Forces vis a vis Russia? How does history come
into that? What is this nonsense about Ukraine blackening Russia's
name? That was the Netherlands and it doesn't take much to blacken
the name of a dictatorship, does it?
A new facet of you is emerging - conspiracy theorist :)
i.e., i made those remarks/comments based on history and not on
anything
personal, but on the fact that ukraine was totally unable to do
anything
about it and as such then started demanding the west supply them with
arms
so they 'could' maybe do something about it... which the west refused
saying they couldn't supply them with offensive weapons because that
would
be too much of a provocation, ditto letting them join nato, so we sent >>>> them some medical kits and gloves whatever and a few 'advisors',
meanwhile
denying that ukraine was the west's proxy...
There you go with the word "personal" again. I'm not being personal
at all. I'm pointing out that NOW in THIS MOMENT (not history)
Ukraine has a "very formidable army".
And it does.
### - one obviously NOT powerful 'enough' to repel russia back out of
crimea or the southern regions!
this being the reason they then demanded (and i think expected) help
from
nato and the US!
Ukraine doesn't have an army the size of Russia. But it still has the
second most powerful army in Europe after France.
Isn't that "formidable"? Would you say Germany would be a walk in the
park or Poland, if Russia invaded Europe? Well, Ukraine has a more
powerful army than both.
Yet you think Russia would just take Ukraine in a few hours or
something. That is incorrect.
iow: they've got an army yes, but which is nothing compared to the
resources available to the rebels in the south coming from russia...
Really? Is that so?
So far, there have been more combined Russian and rebel forces killed
than Ukraine Armed Forces combined with Ukraine National Guard.
All below deaths for period 6 April 2014 – 14 April 2021
Civilians 3,375 killed (312
foreign)
UAF, NGU and volunteer forces 4,525 killed
DPR and LPR forces 5,709 killed
Russian Armed Forces 400–500 killed
So apart from civilians, who are probably Russian speaking rebel
sympathisers, there have been 4500 Ukrainian armed forces killed -v-
6200 combined rebel and Russian armed forces killed.
Logically (using reason) if the "resources available to the rebels"
and the much vaunted Russian army were so great (according to your
unsourced comment above), shouldn't that be the other way around?
Care to explain?
### - but i already have, several times!
they were no match for a bunch of rebels in the south!
explain that??
You're ignoring the numbers Slider. More Russians and rebels have
been killed by Ukraine than Ukrainians killed by the Russians and
rebels.
How do you translate that into "no match for a bunch of rebels in the
south"?
Please, just once, focus on the numbers above (6200 DPR, LPR and
Russians killed - v - 4525 Ukrainian soldiers and militia killed).
More Russians etc killed to date than Ukrainians killed to date.
You can't possibly ignore those statistics. How so "no match for a
bunch of rebels in the south"?
I've explained myself. Your turn now.
that unless nato stepped in ukraine would likely be taken with
hardly
any
fuss at all + that's the real risk for the world if nato got
involved,
the
russians are no push-over (just ask napoleon or the germans hah!)
plus
once started it would be very difficult to stop and they'd
undoubtedly
wreck the entire planet between them in only 2 or 3 days, imho no
one
would (or could) ever win such a war...
No they won't. You think conventional limited territorial war using >>>>> PROXIES which is what the "rebels" in east Donbass are to the
Russians
and the Ukrainians are to NATO and the US (and the UK) - will spill
straight away into unlimited thermonuclear inferno on a planetary
extinction scale?
Are you crazy, or just used to not thinking stuff through?
### - drop the personal stuff ok? (which is ultimately only an
invitation
to fight) or we'll have to end this conversation/debate? it's
completely
unnecessary! (am i calling you names?? no! so just make your points
without adding any editorial, don't change the subject or haha i'll be >>>> forced to think you've run out of material!)
But it's true. You think every remote scrap between poverty stricken
states like Ukraine and Russia is some sort of imminent armageddon.
Biden is right to leave this crap up to the states involved and also
to NATO which is far more representative of Europe's interests than
the US can ever be.
### - no i don't think that...
plus as i've already stated: some places are potential flash points!
and while it's only still between russian-backed rebels and ukraine
itself, that is effectively a stalemate situation because there's
apparently fuck all ukraine can personally do about it or they would
have
done it at the time or subsequently, they didn't and they haven't! and
imho that speaks volumes!
No it is NOT only between rebels and Ukrainians. There have been up
to 500 Russians killed. That's a sizeable fragment of total
non-Ukrainian forces deaths. There are and have been, and will be,
Russians involved.
You are wrong.
Turkey is very closely alilgned with Ukraine. They had a summit
earlier this week - Zelensky and Erdogan. You aren't taking that
factor into account either.
The US is pivoting everything to Asia where the real struggle is
starting to take place. China is the foe, Russia is a beaten up
scrapyard of old people who dream about past glories which will never
be repeated.
### - we've got problems with china too for sure, but russia is still a
nuclear superpower!
you may like to denigrate russia in your mind, but they're still sitting
on enough shit to destroy the whole planet several times over, to the
point we can't possibly afford to start anything with them! they might
not
win such a war but no one would or even could win such a war, there'd be
nothing left ffs!
I don't need to denigrate Russia, they do a neat job themselves. It's
mainly Putin who is quite blackhearted, Russians are just like any
other human, part of the species.
China faces the Pacific which also faces the west coast of the US up
to Alaska. There's very little threat from Vladivostok, but a very
significant threat from China.
### - have never felt russia to be an 'active' threat, i don't see them
making any preemptive strikes for example, instead it's always the west
doing all the pushing and making all the threats, ukraine being a case
in
point! why else did russia annex crimea otherwise?? they seemed
perfectly
happy leasing their port there until a western-backed political coup
altered the government in ukraine! that if we hadn't done that then
chances are crimea would have remained exactly where it was!
I never said Russia was an active threat. I don't think it is. They
play different games, cyberwar, espionage, interference in democratice elections etc. Just like Israel, China, the US and your own
intelligence services.
But Russia certainly is no friend of the west.
now then back to the debate: if the west starts backing up ukraine
with
offensive supplies and/or lets them join nato thus 'making' them our
official proxy then yes there's a clear risk of more direct
confrontation
with russia! one that likely wouldn't stop until there was an almighty >>>> clash between 2 superpowers!
Nope. Biden is yawning about Putin's gyrations. He isn't yawning
about China though.
### - don't change the subject to china lol, such prevarication isn't
acceptable haha :)))
Well it's relevant but I'm happy to stay with your original premise.
There will be no WW3 between Russia and the US. Maybe a localised war
### - conceding the debate was solely to do with resorting to impugning
my
ability to reason correctly, as in: "when the debate is lost slander
becomes the tool of the loser"
You maintain Ukrainian armed forces are insignificant and I quoted a
respected ex-USA Ambassador to Russia who stated the opposite. I
assume that he has access to more and better information than you do
given his background in high government.
I simply stated that I take his opinion over yours. You haven't even
provided me with any statistics, figures, references or anything else
on which to support your contention that Ukrainian forces are
insignificant.
Therefore, it is reasonable and logical for me to discount your
opinion and accept the opinion of the ex-USA Ambassador to Russia.
Simple as that. I don't see any vestige of "slander" or "impugning
your ability to reason correctly". I simply rest on the facts and on
that basis, you are wrong and I am right.
In your boots, I would accept the facts gracefully and concede.
Because I don't really care and the facts are the facts and this is
just usenet, after all :)
### - we're actually fine on this, and on the facts involved as quoted by >you, the rest was only about you calling me crazy etc etc (thus making it >personal) and so i was saying let's not go there as it's irrelevant if am >crazy or not, and to leave any personal slurs out of it altogether so we >don't go off on a tangent...
so if you start going 'that' way in a discussion (resorting to name
calling etc thus making it personal and thus effectively changing the
subject) then that's what am probably gonna think...
I have no idea what you're talking about. I stated facts. You are
trying to distort what I said and what I meant. You don't like losing
and that, if I'm right, can be a significant character flaw.
Gentlemen know when it's time to concede and they do so, gracefully.
### - am not disputing your facts or stats whatsoever and was only taking >objection to you suggesting/implying that i can't reason correctly...
e.g., you said at one point: "Are you crazy, or just used to not thinking >stuff through?"
and all am saying, in a jocular enough way, is let's not go there because >this is to effectively change the subject, a common enough way often used
to derail a debate (one of jeremy's favourite ploys for example when he >starts losing a debate and/or doesn't like the way things are going)
and we don't need to do that (i haven't done anything like that so far
have i, haven't called you a nut or unreasonable etc) and that's ALL i
meant and was referring to...
Firstly, it wasn't a debate. Secondly, I rebutted your opinion about
Ukraine's armed forces with fact - the opinion of an ex-Ambassador to
Russia. No concession there mate.
### - my point re that was clear enough, 'actual history' and track
record
suggesting that every time ukraine tried to retake their southern
regions
they failed! every time! so much so they started asking for backup from
nato and supplies from the US? and then eventually they resorted to the
dirty tricks propaganda dept. of then blackening russia's name via the
mh17 incident, a situation i still think they personally created for
that
express purpose coz they couldn't do fuck all else!
Aren't we talking about your dismissive opinion of the inadequacy of
the Ukrainian Armed Forces vis a vis Russia? How does history come
into that? What is this nonsense about Ukraine blackening Russia's
name? That was the Netherlands and it doesn't take much to blacken
the name of a dictatorship, does it?
### - yes that's what we're talking about... the 'history' i mentioned
being solely that of what actually happened 'after' russia annexed crimea
and the russian-backed rebels created rebel-held zones in the south of >ukraine... ukraine then made several attempts at regaining those areas
and made several assaults in that direction all of which failed or were >repelled, that although yes ukraine has a sizable army they apparently
can't fight for shit because each and every time they tried to do
something about it they failed and then finally had to resort to calling
for backup from nato and the US etc (who basically told them to piss off >haha)
A new facet of you is emerging - conspiracy theorist :)
### - nope, am defo not one of those... everything i said being based on
what actually happened + some proffered + reasonable enough speculation on
my part as to maybe why it happened
i.e., i made those remarks/comments based on history and not on
anything
personal, but on the fact that ukraine was totally unable to do
anything
about it and as such then started demanding the west supply them with >>>>> arms
so they 'could' maybe do something about it... which the west refused >>>>> saying they couldn't supply them with offensive weapons because that >>>>> would
be too much of a provocation, ditto letting them join nato, so we sent >>>>> them some medical kits and gloves whatever and a few 'advisors',
meanwhile
denying that ukraine was the west's proxy...
There you go with the word "personal" again. I'm not being personal
at all. I'm pointing out that NOW in THIS MOMENT (not history)
Ukraine has a "very formidable army".
And it does.
### - one obviously NOT powerful 'enough' to repel russia back out of
crimea or the southern regions!
this being the reason they then demanded (and i think expected) help
from
nato and the US!
Ukraine doesn't have an army the size of Russia. But it still has the
second most powerful army in Europe after France.
Isn't that "formidable"? Would you say Germany would be a walk in the
park or Poland, if Russia invaded Europe? Well, Ukraine has a more
powerful army than both.
Yet you think Russia would just take Ukraine in a few hours or
something. That is incorrect.
### - ok, here we are back on the same page again... i.e., i was going on >what russia had stated at the time, which was along the lines of them
being able to take kiev in only a couple of weeks (their statement not
mine) if the need arose; a blatant warning to the west to butt-out lest
they (russia) obviates the problem altogether by capturing the whole of >ukraine...
iow: they've got an army yes, but which is nothing compared to the
resources available to the rebels in the south coming from russia...
Really? Is that so?
So far, there have been more combined Russian and rebel forces killed
than Ukraine Armed Forces combined with Ukraine National Guard.
All below deaths for period 6 April 2014 – 14 April 2021
Civilians 3,375 killed (312
foreign)
UAF, NGU and volunteer forces 4,525 killed
DPR and LPR forces 5,709 killed
Russian Armed Forces 400–500 killed
So apart from civilians, who are probably Russian speaking rebel
sympathisers, there have been 4500 Ukrainian armed forces killed -v-
6200 combined rebel and Russian armed forces killed.
Logically (using reason) if the "resources available to the rebels"
and the much vaunted Russian army were so great (according to your
unsourced comment above), shouldn't that be the other way around?
Care to explain?
### - but i already have, several times!
they were no match for a bunch of rebels in the south!
explain that??
You're ignoring the numbers Slider. More Russians and rebels have
been killed by Ukraine than Ukrainians killed by the Russians and
rebels.
How do you translate that into "no match for a bunch of rebels in the
south"?
Please, just once, focus on the numbers above (6200 DPR, LPR and
Russians killed - v - 4525 Ukrainian soldiers and militia killed).
More Russians etc killed to date than Ukrainians killed to date.
You can't possibly ignore those statistics. How so "no match for a
bunch of rebels in the south"?
I've explained myself. Your turn now.
### - no match for a bunch of rebels because they (ukraine) was unable to >launch even one successful assault in terms of regaining their occupied >regions in the south, they tried several times but were repelled every
time, lots of people got killed on both sides during those skirmishes but
the rebels still managed to hold onto their occupied areas, the
'implication' being that the ukraine army obviously can't fight for shit >'regardless' of their greater numbers...
that unless nato stepped in ukraine would likely be taken with
hardly
any
fuss at all + that's the real risk for the world if nato got
involved,
the
russians are no push-over (just ask napoleon or the germans hah!) >>>>>>> plus
once started it would be very difficult to stop and they'd
undoubtedly
wreck the entire planet between them in only 2 or 3 days, imho no >>>>>>> one
would (or could) ever win such a war...
No they won't. You think conventional limited territorial war using >>>>>> PROXIES which is what the "rebels" in east Donbass are to the
Russians
and the Ukrainians are to NATO and the US (and the UK) - will spill >>>>>> straight away into unlimited thermonuclear inferno on a planetary
extinction scale?
Are you crazy, or just used to not thinking stuff through?
### - drop the personal stuff ok? (which is ultimately only an
invitation
to fight) or we'll have to end this conversation/debate? it's
completely
unnecessary! (am i calling you names?? no! so just make your points
without adding any editorial, don't change the subject or haha i'll be >>>>> forced to think you've run out of material!)
But it's true. You think every remote scrap between poverty stricken
states like Ukraine and Russia is some sort of imminent armageddon.
Biden is right to leave this crap up to the states involved and also
to NATO which is far more representative of Europe's interests than
the US can ever be.
### - no i don't think that...
plus as i've already stated: some places are potential flash points!
and while it's only still between russian-backed rebels and ukraine
itself, that is effectively a stalemate situation because there's
apparently fuck all ukraine can personally do about it or they would
have
done it at the time or subsequently, they didn't and they haven't! and
imho that speaks volumes!
No it is NOT only between rebels and Ukrainians. There have been up
to 500 Russians killed. That's a sizeable fragment of total
non-Ukrainian forces deaths. There are and have been, and will be,
Russians involved.
You are wrong.
Turkey is very closely alilgned with Ukraine. They had a summit
earlier this week - Zelensky and Erdogan. You aren't taking that
factor into account either.
### - turkey is part of nato and nato can't get involved directly without >making ukraine a member of nato too (which nato has refused to do) thus a >stalemate situation now exists in ukraine whereby ukraine, despite their
On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 23:57:06 +0100, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
### - conceding the debate was solely to do with resorting to
impugning
my
ability to reason correctly, as in: "when the debate is lost slander
becomes the tool of the loser"
You maintain Ukrainian armed forces are insignificant and I quoted a
respected ex-USA Ambassador to Russia who stated the opposite. I
assume that he has access to more and better information than you do
given his background in high government.
I simply stated that I take his opinion over yours. You haven't even
provided me with any statistics, figures, references or anything else
on which to support your contention that Ukrainian forces are
insignificant.
Therefore, it is reasonable and logical for me to discount your
opinion and accept the opinion of the ex-USA Ambassador to Russia.
Simple as that. I don't see any vestige of "slander" or "impugning
your ability to reason correctly". I simply rest on the facts and on
that basis, you are wrong and I am right.
In your boots, I would accept the facts gracefully and concede.
Because I don't really care and the facts are the facts and this is
just usenet, after all :)
### - we're actually fine on this, and on the facts involved as quoted
by
you, the rest was only about you calling me crazy etc etc (thus making
it
personal) and so i was saying let's not go there as it's irrelevant if
am
crazy or not, and to leave any personal slurs out of it altogether so we
don't go off on a tangent...
I too am happy to leave it. Let's move on.
so if you start going 'that' way in a discussion (resorting to name
calling etc thus making it personal and thus effectively changing the
subject) then that's what am probably gonna think...
I have no idea what you're talking about. I stated facts. You are
trying to distort what I said and what I meant. You don't like losing
and that, if I'm right, can be a significant character flaw.
Gentlemen know when it's time to concede and they do so, gracefully.
### - am not disputing your facts or stats whatsoever and was only
taking
objection to you suggesting/implying that i can't reason correctly...
e.g., you said at one point: "Are you crazy, or just used to not
thinking
stuff through?"
Yep, probably things on my mind not associated with usenet or the
topic. I've had an "interesting" week.
Let's move on.
and all am saying, in a jocular enough way, is let's not go there
because
this is to effectively change the subject, a common enough way often
used
to derail a debate (one of jeremy's favourite ploys for example when he
starts losing a debate and/or doesn't like the way things are going)
and we don't need to do that (i haven't done anything like that so far
have i, haven't called you a nut or unreasonable etc) and that's ALL i
meant and was referring to...
Well I am eccentric, whether it comes with age or just the fact that
most humans act stupidly and therefore I'm almost always frustrated
with how the herd behaves as a herd - or a little of both - I take
pride in my eccentricity.
Call me a nut, or worse, I would care little. I have quite a thick
hide. I'm sure you get called worse in the street over your long
life, I certainly have. In the street is a lot worse than anonymous
banter on this medium.
Firstly, it wasn't a debate. Secondly, I rebutted your opinion about >>>>> Ukraine's armed forces with fact - the opinion of an ex-Ambassador to >>>>> Russia. No concession there mate.
### - my point re that was clear enough, 'actual history' and track
record
suggesting that every time ukraine tried to retake their southern
regions
they failed! every time! so much so they started asking for backup
from
nato and supplies from the US? and then eventually they resorted to
the
dirty tricks propaganda dept. of then blackening russia's name via the >>>> mh17 incident, a situation i still think they personally created for
that
express purpose coz they couldn't do fuck all else!
Aren't we talking about your dismissive opinion of the inadequacy of
the Ukrainian Armed Forces vis a vis Russia? How does history come
into that? What is this nonsense about Ukraine blackening Russia's
name? That was the Netherlands and it doesn't take much to blacken
the name of a dictatorship, does it?
### - yes that's what we're talking about... the 'history' i mentioned
being solely that of what actually happened 'after' russia annexed
crimea
and the russian-backed rebels created rebel-held zones in the south of
ukraine... ukraine then made several attempts at regaining those areas
and made several assaults in that direction all of which failed or were
repelled, that although yes ukraine has a sizable army they apparently
can't fight for shit because each and every time they tried to do
something about it they failed and then finally had to resort to calling
for backup from nato and the US etc (who basically told them to piss off
haha)
Slider, try to stay on topic and avoid invective and jargon. Stay
factual, I know you can.
The Ukrainian armed forces have killed more rebels/Russians than the
reverse. That would seem to indicate that the Ukrainian armed forces
can dish out punishment to a better armed opponent as well as take
punishment from the same opponent.
Can you explain the variance between these facts and your view that
the Ukrainian armed forces "can't fight for shit"? Try to encapsulate
or at least refer to the *fact* that more rebel/Russian forces have
been killed by Ukrainian armed forces than the reverse.
A new facet of you is emerging - conspiracy theorist :)
### - nope, am defo not one of those... everything i said being based on
what actually happened + some proffered + reasonable enough speculation
on
my part as to maybe why it happened
Well, yes, actually - yes you *are* "defo one of those". You said:
"...and then eventually they resorted to the dirty tricks propaganda
dept. of then blackening russia's name via the mh17 incident, a
situation i still think they personally created for that"
You are saying in shorter form that Ukraine shot down a civilian jet
full of NATO civilians and other Western men women and children just
to foment a "blackening of russia's name".
Yep, I would say that you are DEFO one of those.
Or, show me one **respected** citation or link for the information on
which you base this assertion and I will take it back. I don't mean,
by the way, Russia Today News or Sputnik.
Even Trump and his nut cohort hasn't come out with drivel like that.
Call me a nut, or worse, I would care little. I have quite a thick### - i know, i know... and am not particularly offended by anything
hide. I'm sure you get called worse in the street over your long
life, I certainly have. In the street is a lot worse than anonymous
banter on this medium.
that's said in the course of an exchange, it can even be fun and i really don't mind it + can give as good as i get in that regard and am not at all cowed by it... challenged yes, cowed no...
what am suggesting, however, is that you & i personally refrain from such activity considering what it eventually amounted to between us before,
mainly because it didn't end well... (i.e., you basically couldn't handle
it and lashed out)
and that's ALL am saying/suggesting...
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