well well well, what do we have here? OR should i do a alright,
alright
alright Matt style? We are going to quote from a book that was written
in 2012. Written by author B. Alan Wallace. Title is "Dreaming
Yourself
Awake" Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and Transformation. We go to page 110 and it reads as follows:
"A final point regarding these paranormal abilities: in 1992 the
Dalai Lama made reference to a practice that was possible for those
who are very accomplished yogis and already quite advanced in the
practice of dream yoga. With that as a basis, one may enter into
something that is explicitly a Vajrayana dream-yoga practice and--this
really stretches the imagination--one may develop what the Dalai Lama referred to as the special dream body. Here one gains mastery over the subtle energies in the body. You shape them, crafting them as a
potter forms a pot, refining and shaping and directing the subtle
energies with the power of your samadhi. You're not just working
with the substrate, which is intangible and immaterial, you are using
the power of your samadhi to create an ethereal body composed of
energy. That energy is prana. Once you have created this pranic
body wile meditating within the dream state, you project it, sned
it out into the intersubjective world, into "ordinary reality."
All this sound a little familiar? Why sure it does. The little
thief
of Pandora was selling this in his book from 1993. Guess who?
Amazing how quick his side of the story got published from when
the Dalai Lama spoke about it. Did shorty borrow from the Lama
or did the Lama borrow from the Nagual? I'd bet money that the
little lifter grifter and his nagualettes used someone else's knowledge.
Par for the course with these guys. So there you have it.
You can read the remaining part of that page i quoted from for some
more info. My hands are tired of typing for now, i've had a rough day
here again in paradise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
***
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and golden political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
adise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
i thought maybe you would 'get' this but it looks like it bypassed you.
Oh well. Maybe you didn't study Charlie Caesar enough eh ?
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
how's that walkin' workin' out for ya there in old London town ?
well well well, what do we have here? OR should i do a alright,
alright
alright Matt style? We are going to quote from a book that was written
in 2012. Written by author B. Alan Wallace. Title is "Dreaming
Yourself
Awake" Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and
Transformation. We go to page 110 and it reads as follows:
"A final point regarding these paranormal abilities: in 1992 the
Dalai Lama made reference to a practice that was possible for those
who are very accomplished yogis and already quite advanced in the
practice of dream yoga. With that as a basis, one may enter into
something that is explicitly a Vajrayana dream-yoga practice and--this
really stretches the imagination--one may develop what the Dalai Lama
referred to as the special dream body. Here one gains mastery over the
subtle energies in the body. You shape them, crafting them as a
potter forms a pot, refining and shaping and directing the subtle
energies with the power of your samadhi. You're not just working
with the substrate, which is intangible and immaterial, you are using
the power of your samadhi to create an ethereal body composed of
energy. That energy is prana. Once you have created this pranic
body wile meditating within the dream state, you project it, sned
it out into the intersubjective world, into "ordinary reality."
All this sound a little familiar? Why sure it does. The little
thief
of Pandora was selling this in his book from 1993. Guess who?
Amazing how quick his side of the story got published from when
the Dalai Lama spoke about it. Did shorty borrow from the Lama
or did the Lama borrow from the Nagual? I'd bet money that the
little lifter grifter and his nagualettes used someone else's knowledge.
Par for the course with these guys. So there you have it.
You can read the remaining part of that page i quoted from for some
more info. My hands are tired of typing for now, i've had a rough day
here again in paradise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
meanwhile... history is being MADE on day 4 of trumpy's trial as the
repubs rush to cover their ass, and who, in truth, obviously don't give a >flying-shit about democracy, crime, deaths, even violent insurgence upon
the capitol! just so long as they can wangle their dastardly way back into >power at some later point??
thus it's in their 'interests' - literally regardless of 'anything' else!
- to vote against conviction lest the whole GOP ends up becoming a public >pariah who wont see power again for decades!
'history' will judge them all accordingly though depending on exactly what >happens next?
so it's gonna be fun today (it's just about to start) watching these >incredibly expensive shyster-lawyers pleading their case to exonerate
trumpy? hah! (bent lawyers heh)
and very revealing to boot how they go about it!
this is genuinely great stuff, history in the making folks! don't miss it
;)
***
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and golden >political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:03:16 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
well well well, what do we have here? OR should i do a alright,
alright
alright Matt style? We are going to quote from a book that was
written
in 2012. Written by author B. Alan Wallace. Title is "Dreaming
Yourself
Awake" Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and
Transformation. We go to page 110 and it reads as follows:
"A final point regarding these paranormal abilities: in 1992 the
Dalai Lama made reference to a practice that was possible for those
who are very accomplished yogis and already quite advanced in the
practice of dream yoga. With that as a basis, one may enter into
something that is explicitly a Vajrayana dream-yoga practice and--this
really stretches the imagination--one may develop what the Dalai Lama
referred to as the special dream body. Here one gains mastery over
the
subtle energies in the body. You shape them, crafting them as a
potter forms a pot, refining and shaping and directing the subtle
energies with the power of your samadhi. You're not just working
with the substrate, which is intangible and immaterial, you are using
the power of your samadhi to create an ethereal body composed of
energy. That energy is prana. Once you have created this pranic
body wile meditating within the dream state, you project it, sned
it out into the intersubjective world, into "ordinary reality."
All this sound a little familiar? Why sure it does. The little
thief
of Pandora was selling this in his book from 1993. Guess who?
Amazing how quick his side of the story got published from when
the Dalai Lama spoke about it. Did shorty borrow from the Lama
or did the Lama borrow from the Nagual? I'd bet money that the
little lifter grifter and his nagualettes used someone else's
knowledge.
Par for the course with these guys. So there you have it.
You can read the remaining part of that page i quoted from for some
more info. My hands are tired of typing for now, i've had a rough
day
here again in paradise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
Oi mate. I thought you were fucking off? I go away for a week or so
and here you are, back, with a target painted by Arthur Macey on your
back lolz
Ya gots to make a plan and stick with it. Otherwise, it's Plan B all
the way down.
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
meanwhile... history is being MADE on day 4 of trumpy's trial as the
repubs rush to cover their ass, and who, in truth, obviously don't give
a
flying-shit about democracy, crime, deaths, even violent insurgence upon
the capitol! just so long as they can wangle their dastardly way back
into
power at some later point??
thus it's in their 'interests' - literally regardless of 'anything'
else!
- to vote against conviction lest the whole GOP ends up becoming a
public
pariah who wont see power again for decades!
'history' will judge them all accordingly though depending on exactly
what
happens next?
so it's gonna be fun today (it's just about to start) watching these
incredibly expensive shyster-lawyers pleading their case to exonerate
trumpy? hah! (bent lawyers heh)
and very revealing to boot how they go about it!
this is genuinely great stuff, history in the making folks! don't miss
it
;)
***
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
I'll bet he wasn't walking around when the V2s and doodlebugs were
dropping in, unannounced :)
sooo serious sometimes wrote...
adise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
i thought maybe you would 'get' this but it looks like it bypassed you.
Oh well. Maybe you didn't study Charlie Caesar enough eh ?
### - of course i get it ya twit ahaha, can't ya tell a wind-up when ya
see one? geez...
or what, ya thought am gonna actually indulge ya in that??
that was 20+ years ago ffs! a lot has happened since then haha, get over
it! (really laffing) :)
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round >>> of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
how's that walkin' workin' out for ya there in old London town ?
### - not 'allowed' out here at the moment unless it's an emergency!
(they's learnin heh... very slowly)
e.g., see how oz deals with it now? one little cluster and they lockdown
the whole city of victoria!
and THAT's what we all have'ta learn innit...
got me booked in for a vaccination now though, don't fancy having my genes >fucked with personally but it's prolly for the best... and screw if it >mutates me!?
and because oh well, they always said 2 heads are better than one anyway
haha :)))
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:20:13 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
sooo serious sometimes wrote...
adise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
i thought maybe you would 'get' this but it looks like it bypassed you.
Oh well. Maybe you didn't study Charlie Caesar enough eh ?
### - of course i get it ya twit ahaha, can't ya tell a wind-up when ya
see one? geez...
or what, ya thought am gonna actually indulge ya in that??
that was 20+ years ago ffs! a lot has happened since then haha, get over
it! (really laffing) :)
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the
daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
how's that walkin' workin' out for ya there in old London town ?
### - not 'allowed' out here at the moment unless it's an emergency!
(they's learnin heh... very slowly)
e.g., see how oz deals with it now? one little cluster and they lockdown
the whole city of victoria!
Some city. Victoria's a state with around 7 million pop, the city
you're referring to is its capital, Melbourne. It's fairly big, about
4 or 5 million I think.
It works though. We did the same here in Perth, lockdown for one
week. Masks, all that stuff.
and THAT's what we all have'ta learn innit...
got me booked in for a vaccination now though, don't fancy having my
genes
fucked with personally but it's prolly for the best... and screw if it
mutates me!?
Ha. We're so old it doesn't matter. Age gonna kill us before
vaccination, but most certainly, COVID has a big chance of knocking
us.
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:16:43 -0000, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:20:13 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
sooo serious sometimes wrote...
adise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
i thought maybe you would 'get' this but it looks like it bypassed you. >>>> Oh well. Maybe you didn't study Charlie Caesar enough eh ?
### - of course i get it ya twit ahaha, can't ya tell a wind-up when ya
see one? geez...
or what, ya thought am gonna actually indulge ya in that??
that was 20+ years ago ffs! a lot has happened since then haha, get over >>> it! (really laffing) :)
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of >>>>> twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the
daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing >>>>> home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
how's that walkin' workin' out for ya there in old London town ?
### - not 'allowed' out here at the moment unless it's an emergency!
(they's learnin heh... very slowly)
e.g., see how oz deals with it now? one little cluster and they lockdown >>> the whole city of victoria!
Some city. Victoria's a state with around 7 million pop, the city
you're referring to is its capital, Melbourne. It's fairly big, about
4 or 5 million I think.
It works though. We did the same here in Perth, lockdown for one
week. Masks, all that stuff.
### - it obviously works! new zealand got it done right too! the only
mistake they made here in the uk being to not remain initially locked down >for long enough to actually get rid of it! but looks like they've learned >their lesson now though albeit somewhat rather late in the day...
and THAT's what we all have'ta learn innit...
got me booked in for a vaccination now though, don't fancy having my
genes
fucked with personally but it's prolly for the best... and screw if it
mutates me!?
Ha. We're so old it doesn't matter. Age gonna kill us before
vaccination, but most certainly, COVID has a big chance of knocking
us.
### - vaccine actually seems to be working though? the biggest drop in
latest figures being from our own age group particularly rather amazingly?
my poor friend (age only 65) went the hard route though on a full
ventilator et al, and basically slowly choked/drowned to death (her
funeral's tomorrow)
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:07:52 -0000, o'Mahoney <libertidad@south.south.com> >wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:03:16 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
well well well, what do we have here? OR should i do a alright,
alright
alright Matt style? We are going to quote from a book that was
written
in 2012. Written by author B. Alan Wallace. Title is "Dreaming
Yourself
Awake" Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and
Transformation. We go to page 110 and it reads as follows:
"A final point regarding these paranormal abilities: in 1992 the
Dalai Lama made reference to a practice that was possible for those
who are very accomplished yogis and already quite advanced in the
practice of dream yoga. With that as a basis, one may enter into
something that is explicitly a Vajrayana dream-yoga practice and--this >>>> really stretches the imagination--one may develop what the Dalai Lama
referred to as the special dream body. Here one gains mastery over
the
subtle energies in the body. You shape them, crafting them as a
potter forms a pot, refining and shaping and directing the subtle
energies with the power of your samadhi. You're not just working
with the substrate, which is intangible and immaterial, you are using
the power of your samadhi to create an ethereal body composed of
energy. That energy is prana. Once you have created this pranic
body wile meditating within the dream state, you project it, sned
it out into the intersubjective world, into "ordinary reality."
All this sound a little familiar? Why sure it does. The little >>>> thief
of Pandora was selling this in his book from 1993. Guess who?
Amazing how quick his side of the story got published from when
the Dalai Lama spoke about it. Did shorty borrow from the Lama
or did the Lama borrow from the Nagual? I'd bet money that the
little lifter grifter and his nagualettes used someone else's
knowledge.
Par for the course with these guys. So there you have it.
You can read the remaining part of that page i quoted from for some
more info. My hands are tired of typing for now, i've had a rough
day
here again in paradise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
Oi mate. I thought you were fucking off? I go away for a week or so
and here you are, back, with a target painted by Arthur Macey on your
back lolz
Ya gots to make a plan and stick with it. Otherwise, it's Plan B all
the way down.
### - haha, yeah well he's the type who lives to hate someone/anyone
because he hates himself for being different/handicapped, who when offered >peace chose war because peace is anathema to him (i.e., he loves to run >around with a big knife/gun and harm people but doesn't have even a clue >about healing/helping anyone etc, not even himself...)
me? have never made a 'plan' in my life and lived it almost totally by
ear, have thus effectively played-jazz with Life ;)
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
meanwhile... history is being MADE on day 4 of trumpy's trial as the
repubs rush to cover their ass, and who, in truth, obviously don't give
a
flying-shit about democracy, crime, deaths, even violent insurgence upon >>> the capitol! just so long as they can wangle their dastardly way back
into
power at some later point??
thus it's in their 'interests' - literally regardless of 'anything'
else!
- to vote against conviction lest the whole GOP ends up becoming a
public
pariah who wont see power again for decades!
'history' will judge them all accordingly though depending on exactly
what
happens next?
so it's gonna be fun today (it's just about to start) watching these
incredibly expensive shyster-lawyers pleading their case to exonerate
trumpy? hah! (bent lawyers heh)
and very revealing to boot how they go about it!
this is genuinely great stuff, history in the making folks! don't miss
it
;)
***
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the daily-round >>> of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
I'll bet he wasn't walking around when the V2s and doodlebugs were
dropping in, unannounced :)
### - i dunno so much, we were bombed for 60+ days straight during the
blitz, every day and night for 62 days on the trot or summat? people
emerging from their shelters only to run straight back to them again when
the sirens went off... and yet, according to orwell, people were still >walking around in a simple kind of dream...
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:47:36 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:16:43 -0000, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 13 Feb 2021 18:20:13 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
sooo serious sometimes wrote...
adise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
i thought maybe you would 'get' this but it looks like it bypassed
you.
Oh well. Maybe you didn't study Charlie Caesar enough eh ?
### - of course i get it ya twit ahaha, can't ya tell a wind-up when
ya
see one? geez...
or what, ya thought am gonna actually indulge ya in that??
that was 20+ years ago ffs! a lot has happened since then haha, get
over
it! (really laffing) :)
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and >>>>>> golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of >>>>>> twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the
daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing >>>>>> home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
how's that walkin' workin' out for ya there in old London town ?
### - not 'allowed' out here at the moment unless it's an emergency!
(they's learnin heh... very slowly)
e.g., see how oz deals with it now? one little cluster and they
lockdown
the whole city of victoria!
Some city. Victoria's a state with around 7 million pop, the city
you're referring to is its capital, Melbourne. It's fairly big, about
4 or 5 million I think.
It works though. We did the same here in Perth, lockdown for one
week. Masks, all that stuff.
### - it obviously works! new zealand got it done right too! the only
mistake they made here in the uk being to not remain initially locked
down
for long enough to actually get rid of it! but looks like they've
learned
their lesson now though albeit somewhat rather late in the day...
and THAT's what we all have'ta learn innit...
got me booked in for a vaccination now though, don't fancy having my
genes
fucked with personally but it's prolly for the best... and screw if it >>>> mutates me!?
Ha. We're so old it doesn't matter. Age gonna kill us before
vaccination, but most certainly, COVID has a big chance of knocking
us.
### - vaccine actually seems to be working though? the biggest drop in
latest figures being from our own age group particularly rather
amazingly?
my poor friend (age only 65) went the hard route though on a full
ventilator et al, and basically slowly choked/drowned to death (her
funeral's tomorrow)
Is'm sorry to hear that. Dreadful way to die.
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:36:11 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 12:07:52 -0000, o'Mahoney
<libertidad@south.south.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 17:03:16 -0000, slider <slider@anashram.com>
wrote:
well well well, what do we have here? OR should i do a alright,
alright
alright Matt style? We are going to quote from a book that was
written
in 2012. Written by author B. Alan Wallace. Title is "Dreaming
Yourself
Awake" Lucid Dreaming and Tibetan Dream Yoga for Insight and
Transformation. We go to page 110 and it reads as follows:
"A final point regarding these paranormal abilities: in 1992 the
Dalai Lama made reference to a practice that was possible for those
who are very accomplished yogis and already quite advanced in the
practice of dream yoga. With that as a basis, one may enter into
something that is explicitly a Vajrayana dream-yoga practice
and--this
really stretches the imagination--one may develop what the Dalai Lama >>>>> referred to as the special dream body. Here one gains mastery over >>>>> the
subtle energies in the body. You shape them, crafting them as a
potter forms a pot, refining and shaping and directing the subtle
energies with the power of your samadhi. You're not just working
with the substrate, which is intangible and immaterial, you are using >>>>> the power of your samadhi to create an ethereal body composed of
energy. That energy is prana. Once you have created this pranic
body wile meditating within the dream state, you project it, sned
it out into the intersubjective world, into "ordinary reality."
All this sound a little familiar? Why sure it does. The
little
thief
of Pandora was selling this in his book from 1993. Guess who?
Amazing how quick his side of the story got published from when
the Dalai Lama spoke about it. Did shorty borrow from the Lama
or did the Lama borrow from the Nagual? I'd bet money that the
little lifter grifter and his nagualettes used someone else's
knowledge.
Par for the course with these guys. So there you have it.
You can read the remaining part of that page i quoted from for some
more info. My hands are tired of typing for now, i've had a rough >>>>> day
here again in paradise.
### - yeah yeah, blah blah blah...
Oi mate. I thought you were fucking off? I go away for a week or so
and here you are, back, with a target painted by Arthur Macey on your
back lolz
Ya gots to make a plan and stick with it. Otherwise, it's Plan B all
the way down.
### - haha, yeah well he's the type who lives to hate someone/anyone
because he hates himself for being different/handicapped, who when
offered
peace chose war because peace is anathema to him (i.e., he loves to run
around with a big knife/gun and harm people but doesn't have even a clue
about healing/helping anyone etc, not even himself...)
Are you talking about our mutual mate Arthur? The guy who seems to
have it in for you, and now me since I doxed him?
You've got his phone number. Give him a call. Better yet,
Christopher can give him a call, they probably both love Trump to
bits.
me? have never made a 'plan' in my life and lived it almost totally by
ear, have thus effectively played-jazz with Life ;)
Bullshit.
but what else can you show me? (grinz...)
meanwhile... history is being MADE on day 4 of trumpy's trial as the
repubs rush to cover their ass, and who, in truth, obviously don't
give
a
flying-shit about democracy, crime, deaths, even violent insurgence
upon
the capitol! just so long as they can wangle their dastardly way back
into
power at some later point??
thus it's in their 'interests' - literally regardless of 'anything'
else!
- to vote against conviction lest the whole GOP ends up becoming a
public
pariah who wont see power again for decades!
'history' will judge them all accordingly though depending on exactly
what
happens next?
so it's gonna be fun today (it's just about to start) watching these
incredibly expensive shyster-lawyers pleading their case to exonerate
trumpy? hah! (bent lawyers heh)
and very revealing to boot how they go about it!
this is genuinely great stuff, history in the making folks! don't miss >>>> it
;)
***
"Life goes on much the same. In the face of terrifying dangers and
golden
political opportunities, people just keep-on keeping-on in a sort of
twilight sleep in which they're conscious of nothing but the
daily-round
of work, family life, darts at the pub, exercising the dog, bringing
home
the supper, beer, etc, etc."
--George Orwell - walking around London during the 1940's blitz
I'll bet he wasn't walking around when the V2s and doodlebugs were
dropping in, unannounced :)
### - i dunno so much, we were bombed for 60+ days straight during the
blitz, every day and night for 62 days on the trot or summat? people
emerging from their shelters only to run straight back to them again
when
the sirens went off... and yet, according to orwell, people were still
walking around in a simple kind of dream...
Huge death rate amongst the Brit and Irish fighter pilots too, huge I
mean HUGE BRASS BALLS each and every one of them, but they won against Goering's finest. Attritted them to hell.
Did Orwell fight or was he too old then? Or working in a protected
industry or somesuch?
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