From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

Part II


Scientific American put it like this:
"Perhaps the illusion can simply be explained by appeal to limits in the brain’s perceptual processing"
[which is very similar to what I was saying in Part I above]

They also confess:
"The illusion may only apply to a small set of our choices that are made quickly and without too much thought." (And the examples Harris uses certainly
fall in that category)

(http://tinyurl.com/y9c53ml7 )

One more way I've considered to possibly look at it is: maybe our unconscious is PART of our decision making process. And maybe BOTH aspects of our minds get involved whenever we make choices. That would be a new way of thinking about it.

It might seem contradictory to speak of "unconscious will". But just because we're unaware of it, does that mean it can't be in some sense "free" to provide
some of its own input in how we choose? Why not? We like to think that to whatever degree
there is unconscious input in our decisions that "we" are not "free". But it depends on how you look at it. If you consider the unconscious aspects of yourself another valuable PART of yourself, then... why can't it be to some extent "free" to have
input into the decisions of the total self?? And is that part of yourself any less "you" than your conscious mind is?

Maybe our unconscious minds have access to everything in our conscious minds, so that our conscious minds are a significant form of INPUT INTO our unconscious minds, and that therefore, any decisions we make are made after the
full input of both
conscious choice and unconscious desire.

I have mentioned many times that several times in my life I've received "messages" from the unconscious (dreams) that had as much effect on major decisions I've made as any conscious choices. A few from time to time have seemed as profound as anything I
can consciously create. So I consider that aspect of myself simply... another valid part of myself, and thus I'm fine with it participating in decision making (if it does). :)

Maybe the delay in these experiments results from the unconscious mind having to absorb all the information from the conscious, next adding in its own input if any, and only then does the brain make us fully consciously aware of our own
full decision.
Maybe?

But I know my conscious mind also directly participates in decision-making. :)
Because sometimes I succeed in doing what I consciously intend. Sometimes my unconscious seems to derail me and I end up doing other things that I did not consciously intend.
It's like there's a bit of a 'battle' taking place. But both factors are serious inputs.

Harris does an 'experiment' I found silly. He has people randomly pick a City anywhere in the world. He then says "you're in no position to know WHY you picked the city you picked". But he didn't give any criterion for picking, so why should there
necessarily be any rational 'why'? As it happens, I did have a reason. I picked a certain city simply because it meant something to me personally. Harris claimed I'd be in no position to know why I picked that one. But that was the reason - it just
happened to be a city I had experiences in. There didn't need to be any further
reason beyond that. If he picks trivial tests no one could care about, how is that any test of free will?

Harris also makes the silly non-point that we are not free to choose a city we don't even know. That one was a total DUH. No one would ever claim we can make
choices we don't even know exist. That is merely one sense in which free will is not absolute
and no one claimed it is.

Next Harris starts talking about 'souls', and since I know of zero evidence for
them, I ignore all this. But I'm a strange beast, because I don't believe in 'souls' or 'minds' independent from our body/brain, and yet DO believe free will exists and is
signficant. In what sense can our choices be "free" if we're only molecular organisms? Well, in the only real sense possible. Our freedom resides within the context of our molecular universe, as it is. It is a 'relative freedom' to choose real options
in the real world we live in. It has nothing to do with 'souls'.

There are even more serious criticisms of the "experiments" Harris only vaguely
refers to in his talk. Here is one of them:

Psychology Today - Benjamin Libet and The Denial of Free Will
How Did a Flawed Experiment Become so Influential?
by Steve Taylor PhD, a senior lecturer in psychology at Leeds Beckett University

http://tinyurl.com/y6v5clsc

Problematic issues:

"It relies on the participants’ own recording of when they feel the intention
to move. One issue here is that there may be a delay between the impulse to act
and their recording of it - after all, this means shifting their attention from
their own
intention to the clock. In addition, it is debatable whether people are able to
accurately record the moment of their decision to move. Our subjective awareness of decisions is very unreliable."

Libet's experiment seems to assume that free will consists of clearcut decisions, made by a conscious, rational mind. But decisions are often made in a more fuzzy, ambiguous way. They can be made on a partly intuitive, impulsive level, without clearcut
conscious awareness. But this doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't made the decision. There is no clear cut off point between clear conscious decisions
and more intuitive or impulsive decisions. Why shouldn't your will be associated with deeper,
less conscious areas of your mind (which are still you)?

[That last one is the exact same possibility I just brought up (before I read this article).]

"An even more serious issue with Libet’s experiment is that it is by no means
clear that the electrical activity of the “readiness potential” is related to the decision to move, and the actual movement. Some researchers have suggested that the
readiness potential could just relate to the act of paying attention to the wrist or a button, rather the decision to move. Others have suggested that it only reflects the expectation of some kind of movement, rather being related to
a specific moment.
In a modified version of Libet’s experiment (in which participants were asked
to press one of two buttons in response to images on a computer screen), participants showed “readiness potential” even before the images came up on
the screen,
suggesting that it was not related to deciding which button to press.

Others have suggested that the area of the brain where the "readiness potential" occurs - the supplementary motor area, or SMA - is usually associated with imagining movements rather than actually performing them. The experience of willing is usually
associated with other areas of the brain (the parietal areas). And finally, in another modified version of Libet’s experiment, participants showed readiness
potential even when they made a decision not to move, which again casts doubt on the assumption
that the readiness potential is actually registering the brain’s “decision” to move.

Because of issues such as these - and others that I don’t have space to mention - it’s mystifying that such a flawed experiment has become so influential, and has been used to frequently as evidence against the idea of free will. The reason why the
experiment has been so enthusiastically embraced is surely because its apparent
findings fit so well with the principles of materialism. It seems to prove what
materialism implies: that human beings are automatons."

Then the author he asks a humorous question: "But how can a self choose, of its own free will, to argue that it has no free will?" LOL.

***

It turns out Libet himself did not even believe his original experiment had totally refuted free will. He was even the first to point out that: "during the
500 milliseconds leading up to an action the conscious mind could choose to reject that action.
While impulses would be dictated by the subconscious, the conscious mind would still have the capacity to suppress or veto them; something that most people would say they do everyday."

Perhaps free will is really at least partially "free won't".

Daniel Dennett's primary critique was that: "the EEG information is objective while the information about when a person “decided” to act is subjective, and reflects when the desire to act seems to arise. Rendering the information gathered in the
experiment less valuable." Similarly, Alfred Mele, who participated in the experiment himself, suggested that “awareness of the intention to move” is too ambiguous a sensation to measure with any accuracy."

http://tinyurl.com/y9bescct

***

But Harris keeps begging the same question just by asserting over and over what
he cannot prove: e.g. he again offers: "where is the freedom in doing what one
wants when one's wants are the product of prior causes which one cannot inspect
and therefore
could not choose and one had absolutely no hand in creating."

But he has not demonstrated these claims. And I say he's wrong. Some of my wants may be the product of prior causes. Others may not be. Some of my wants may have been chosen (once upon a time I first chose to try Neopolitan ice cream and 'Suicide Cherry
Lemon Cokes' although it's confusing to eat 3 flavors at the same time - and I HATED Suicide Cokes) while other wants may not have been chosen (I've always wanted to keep breathing and really had no choice). I assert that we DO have a
hand in creating
many of our 'wants'. Some people just always say NO to Neopolitan Ice Cream and
never develop a taste for it. Hey, I can be as trivial as Harris.

'Compatibilists', according to Harris, say: "Even if our thoughts are the product of unconscious causes, they're still OUR thoughts." I mentioned that already as a possibility above. I independently arrived at this idea on my own when I began writing
this piece. So there is a chance that I would be considered... a "compatibilist", but I go further than that to assert that many of our acts are
at least partly and sometimes even mostly consciously chosen. I also assert that there are mechanisms by
which information we are consciously aware of becomes available to the unconscious and vice versa - i.e. there are significant "feedback loops" in play.

According to Harris, the compatibilitist says: "You are the totality of unconscious processing in your brain." Yes! I agree with that. But... you are
ALSO the totality of *conscious* processing in your brain. You are both. (And your physical body as
well.) And that is why 'relative free will' exists, as does the significant influence of "the unconscious". To understand our behavior, we must not discount either factor. Or the body. Or, as Harris even points out, the bacteria that live on us and
inside us. They do indeed have influence too. ALL of it has influence. But just because free will is not total, and is not the only influence on our behavior, does not mean it isn't real and signficant. It is.

At one point, Harris even admits that "clearly choice and effort are part of the causal chain". Which is just more begging the question since it simply indirectly asserts that ALL choice and effort ARE part of some "causal chain".
But at least he
admits choice and effort exist and are important.

Harris asserts: "you have not built your mind". Well, yes and no. Not totally or absolutely. However, I did have one hell of a lot of conscious input and a significant degree of conscious control, in multiple ways. It would
be just as inaccurate to
say you absolutely have NOT built any aspect of your own mind, as would be to say you have totally built every part of your own mind by choice. There are... multiple factors that go into 'building a mind'. Choice and effort are important too. Harris
even admits that one is an "open system", open to "myriad influences". Right.
And WILL is one such major influence.

Harris points out that we condemn "the conscious intention to do harm". Next he seems to claim that if you do have a lot of "conscious intention to do harm"
that "you are not even partially responsible for it". As if you were merely "unlucky" or
something. That's the part I think is bull. I think most people do have some degree of free choice over "the conscious intention to harm".

As for Harris's arguments on free will being central to religion, although I agree that it is central to most religions to me that's irrelevant (since I don't believe in any of the premises). However, consider the fact that I myself was raised from
childhood to be a 'Methodist Protestant Christian'. I was sent to church by my
parents for many years, beginning as a toddler. And yet now I am an atheist. So, clearly even large amounts of attempted religious "programming" can be completely
overridden. I'm an example. How is that possible unless I have some degree of free choice of my own beliefs?

Another article critical of Harris's conclusion that is worth reading:

New York Magazine
Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their Divorce
By Christian Jarrett

German neuroscientists took a different approach from past work, using a form of brain-computer integration to see whether participants could cancel a movement after the onset of the nonconscious preparatory brain activity identified by Libet. If they
could, it would be a sign that humans can consciously intervene and “veto” processes that neuroscience has previously considered automatic and beyond willful control.

The participants’ task started off simply enough: They had to press a foot pedal as quickly as possible whenever they saw a green light and cancel this movement whenever they saw a red light. Things got trickier when the researchers put the red light
under the control of a computer that was monitoring the participants’ own brain waves. Whenever the computer detected signs of nonconscious preparatory brain activity, it switched on the red light. If this preparatory activity is truly a signal of
actions that are beyond conscious control, the participants should have been incapable of responding to these sudden red lights. In fact, in many cases the participants were able to cancel the nonconscious preparatory brain activity and stop their foot
movement before it even began.


[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0GN4urbA_c

another point view, remember it is just a point of view

and not the gospel according to _______________.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

another point view, remember it is just a point of view

### - pov? pov?? someone's actually gots a... pov???

LYNCH HIMMMM!

:D

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

LYNCH HIMMMM!

imagine no authoritarians, it's ez if you try ....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJA69C6SlRk

Birds flying high you know how I feel
Sun in the sky you know how I feel
Breeze driftin' on by you know how I feel

It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

Fish in the sea you know how I feel
River running free you know how I feel
Blossom on the tree you know how I feel

Dragonfly out in the sun you know what I mean, don't you know
Butterflies all havin' fun you know what I mean
Sleep in peace when day is done
That's what I mean

And this old world is a new world
And a bold world
For me

Stars when you shine you know how I feel
Scent of the pine you know how I feel
Oh freedom is mine
And I know how I feel

It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

impulse sez go out to eat.
ok where do YOU want to go?
i want to go to Cheesecake Factory
No wait a minute i want BJ's Brewhouse
On the way there: what about King's Fish House?
fuck it we are going to BJ's.
3 changes in a few short miles.

free will changes very quickly
choices come and choices go.
follow my impulse here boss.
obey your free will maker.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

birthday boy wrote...

choices come and choices go.
follow my impulse here boss.
obey your free will maker.

### - speaking of choices heh...

quite fancy these today in the uk:

Chester 5.10: Rock N Rolla @ 15/2 (v.nice horse!)

***

and if ya really wanna go out on a limb a bit earlier hah...

Chester 4.05: Justice Shallow @ 150/1

(prolly has no chance at these odds; a rank outsider but me likes it)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

(prolly has no chance at these odds; a rank outsider but me likes it)

do you feel lucky, well, do you punk? ha ha

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

freewilly wrote:

(prolly has no chance at these odds; a rank outsider but me likes it)

do you feel lucky, well, do you punk? ha ha

### - be something more than 'luck' if that fucker wins...

a fuckin' miracle! lol :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: intraphase@gmail.com

On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 1:14:15 PM UTC-4, Jeremy H. Denisovan wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJA69C6SlRk

Birds flying high you know how I feel
Sun in the sky you know how I feel
Breeze driftin' on by you know how I feel

It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

Fish in the sea you know how I feel
River running free you know how I feel
Blossom on the tree you know how I feel

Dragonfly out in the sun you know what I mean, don't you know
Butterflies all havin' fun you know what I mean
Sleep in peace when day is done
That's what I mean

And this old world is a new world
And a bold world
For me

Stars when you shine you know how I feel
Scent of the pine you know how I feel
Oh freedom is mine
And I know how I feel

It's a new dawn
It's a new day
It's a new life
For me
And I'm feeling good

.

A song as if Earth was singing, the "golden plateau" feeling.
They did a good job on the video's theme contrasting the underlying abstract world as counterpoint to the rich textured word portrait and her nuanced and powerful vocal presentation. It's like a twin sister song to...
"Oh What A Wonderful World"

A word search through my poetry collection for "free will."

WHO IS WILL
The world is woman
The universe is man
Woman is free will
Man is free wills plan
Who is this guy named will
Is he drinking in a bar
By the name of Bill
Is he selling dresses
On the empty streets he fills
Keep on trucking
Do what you can
Plan for the children
The wind holds a jam


DOCTOR PLEASE
Doctor Please
Whether I get sick
Whether I get well
Whether I go to heaven
Whether I go to hell
No lectures On free will
No 800 numbers to sell
Don't worry about me
Shut the light
Close the book
Ring the bell

[]

A Living Monolith
A tiny leaf boat shakes and rider quivers
Carried along bythe turns of a mighty river
Holding a seed it must land just right on the bank
To once again spring forth a legion of its rank
A tomb carried by a hoof to where it can flourish
Seeking onward where deaths decay abounds and nourish
Bitter cruel northern winds and biting cold arctic blasts
Betray a terrible newness to a traveler that is without a past
Natures noble wayfaring sojourner longing to be free
Beset by challenges that threaten to kill the fledgling seed
Nightmares and dragons fly ominously overhead
To be spotted now is to join the ranks of the dead
Grass swaying new walls blowing comfortable drifts
Subterranean competition the underworld grows swift
Floods and rainbows eulogize in processional flows
An epic journey that must be taken just to begin to grow
Sheltered from april winds and there blowing strife
Rooting out a homestead where purchase means life
Rising up to the sun to perchance take in a bee cloud
Towering higher than all the old friends met on the ground
Monolith strength is the dream as each years circle goes round
By decree a hotel an hostel for many a sundry heroes, villains and clowns Hijinks and riotous dramas playing out unceasingly that never let down
Faintly remembering the journey of a great tree that almost drowned
A bit of memory that rises as birds fly south and late autumn has come
When frost is on pumpkins and explosive colors fade to vistas of verdun
Oh Where, Oh Where, Upon what raging uncaring angry arrogant river does lay a seed in its boat
Without a twig or bark or roots to quell the journies tremblings and shivers Oh Where Oh Where Clinging to what vagabond hoof might hide a naked seed across
a grassy moat
Finding its own soft unspoiled ground where it can dream of a roof to draw hither
Where Oh Where I do ask you so uncannily bold
What foul patch of decay where other lives have fallen witness with no one to gloat
Shall a new living monolith rise magestically from the sweet earth for many a long day
To the poets,
To the painters,
To the composers, Who hear my muse
To the mystics, To the warriors, To the broken hearted,
Who are still alive to choose
Remember I was once a tiny seed with nothing to lose.
Here I now stand rooted knotted hardened and dug in to my towered fortress Until lightning or fire or the woodchopper's greedy axe strikes me deep and true When that final glorious day comes and I know it surely shall and I am finally struck down
I hope I come crashing in a horrific way and with a dreadful noise to the frightened timorous ground
Fire crackling venomously like a roaring inferno struck at directly from high heavens lightning above
Remembering every one who knew me from seedling to monument with hatred indifference or love
Until each years circle of my very soul is devoured and my spirit is finally quenched, quelled and still
Even in that last final moment when I am less than a speck of a seed I shall exult in the power of free will

[]

THE END
We All Ways Begin In The End
There are so many kinds of love
Many truthful worlds that can be called
Between two owls and the loss of a dove
Never a musical thought left untraced
Never a zero left out or found misplaced
Tally a masquerade until the mask is unfaced
Tarry in the mourning and the mornings disgraced
Stay my own hand so I may be alive tommorow
Each day I would try to find and have to decide
Another sound reason not to let a world suicide
Unspoken passages which my courage hides
Stilling the wonder and wondering still
Sheltered in darkness granted respite by fire
No matter the cost I maintain faith in free will
Day after day-life after life-world after world
Never forgeting theres something about this girl
I am her forgiven prisoner and she is my slave
We forgave it all for each other so very long ago
Stay in the hunt simply for the love of the chase
Two lonely rivers pushing the walls infinitely out
We got the door open we know what its all about
When doors are opened they can’t be closed again
It’s the survive thrive conquer triumph and transcend
Walking together slowly thru the eternal everything
Walls sparkle with tommorows promise of future life
A tear falls upon the dying steppe as life is reborn
I've tried to forget her it only leaves me feeling worn
I've tried so many times that I know its no use
Now she lives inside me until the day I break loose
Sound bites and stereotypes try to eat at my head
Try to lull the true to sleep until their truth is dead
As the old truth stands down the new truth calls
A cold death stars hands are tightly tied an firmly bound

[]

Knock But Once
Yea-I watch the old prowl with fear filled eyes
Resenting the ones they punished and despised
A bower or bride far beyond the twilights hopes
Restraints never before understood until upon the slope
Death is sweet victory for some and a final release
With chains of pain and hatred broken laying at their knees
A many headed razor toothed hydra that no longer binds
Held captive by a crystal jar they once called time
So they hold on moment by precious painful moment
Silent and joyful waiting for the reaper whose sent
Ah the wheat from the chaff and all that blather
Heaven and hell and god and devil not so funny a matter
Analogies carved by sweaty and tired forlorn spirals
To warn the wary traveler of the final ends possible trials
Yea-I watch the old prowl with fear filled eyes
Resenting the ones they punished and despised
I carry my secret wounds and hold my bitter tongue
In the remote island chance that I may not be undone
Wondering and wandering humbly and with what joy I can muster
Knowing the journey has stooped my back and worn away my luster
But what if.... I hail my old friend Mr. Doubt
Who has stayed my hand from vengeance so-so-so many times
Contemplating that dreadful missive hidden in prose and rhyme
"Vengeance is mine sayeth the lord"....
Well at least as I breath out my lungs final somber death rattles
I can look upon the grounded hydra dead at my feet from the battles
Yea I fought every battle demanded letting my enemies slip away
If that be their choice at the end of a sunsets killing fields day
They who demanded the sword thrice and once more I did surely kill
To honor the obvious even if it was against my own hands free will
But now as the end does so surely draw ever nearer and nearer
I let go of even that recompense so as to let my mind become clearer
I seek eternal rest or eternal life not some forever in between
That is why my methods to the unpracticed may have seemed obscene
But as for all so shall it be for me as it was for so many before
Eternity shall know I am dying and either open or close my souls door
Truth beauty courage and the music of the hidden rivers streams
In my final mortal or immortal thought let this be my eternal dream

[]

She Whips My Eyes
She whips my eyes
Wither beauty my visions burn
Primary style and graces
Rain upon my parched destiny
Rivers of colored lights In motion turn to desert blooms
Call me deeper into the unknown
Wilderness of her original ways
She warps my tired smiles
Into genuine resignation
While I carve main sail stays
Oceans slowly form to carry us
To the endless ports on the river
Hidden with the here and nows
Manifold yesterdays and tommorows
Forty days on the Island of the way
The sun in my soul rises once again
I fear her love is the chain that was designed
To redirect the wrath I deposit in her sadness
Pools of sorrow forgotten and remembered only here
A mountains distant call
Announces the journey begins anew
She rides me across the rolling planes
Onward to the meadow shimmering edge
Which is the eternal forest of dreams
Fair warning is recited from a book long believed lost
In the eddies of a raging river whose motion was foretold
Every battle that threatened to turn against my mighty all
An edge of abuse, where the deciders cast always, to fail and fall
Out of the distant lonely forlorn the shriek of a great horned owl
Claws that pin my shoulderings in a sustainingly painful embrace
I see my enemy
Draw aim on his immortal and eternal souls
Casting sacred sentences into the final abyss
Smoked out
Tired souls
Worn out
Cosmic widows
Mapping tarot cards to terraplanes
Ancient words footsteps in the middle
Killer abstract
Forms complete
Actions are in the cue
Breaking premium windows
House of mirrors
As your first innuendo
Faster and faster
I accelerate
Synching to the rhythum of a world
Pursuing the the word and lights opponents
Grids and mattrices deployed to slay the evil
Protect the innocent from the wrath of a lucifer
Journey to the sacred
Sanctuary of forever more
Cool marbled stars reflecting
The passage of golden time
Approaching the rising waves
I always test the open door
She knows I AM the fight
The enemy that is won or lost
Representing the tallies and talons of war
Eventual forgiveness and long lasting peace
Bounding thru times corridors
I stop to watch Philipe Petit walk the wire
Strung between the twin Goliaths
Buildings raised by the folly of Hagars sons
It is my only indulgent vice before the entering
I hear in the near distances the chanting
As the faithful circle the tomb of the patriarch
Abraham laid in state but never allowed to rest
Until the sons of Ishmael and Isaac make their peace
I see a great ship set afire
I see the franco mayor stabbed
I see a theatre full of innocense
Within hagars sons adorned with explosives
I see the cleared space where the twin colossus stood
I approach all directions simultaneously
Wherever I alight is timestop one zero one
Standing before a white hot wall of emotion
That surrounds the vortex zero ultima zero
Where the original creed was invoked illegally
I AM THE LAW
I AM FREE WILL
I AM THE WRATH OF GOD
I AM THE SOUND OF LIGHT
I AM THE SUPREMES THUNDER
I am The Lucifer
I am the owner of the original creed
To use free will to destroy free will creates me again
I am that One that was and is and shall always be The One

I call out each orb of the origins color
To form up by my side in final battle array
Leaders and generals of the false religions
Isolated and placed safely under lock and key
Their vast armies of followers imprisoned In cloistered cells of comfort happiness and ease
Too blissed out to even desire to go free
By assembling the bridges of truth
My colored orbs shall cross a final journey
A river of music which created this unit of verses
Where countless streams of life and love cross
Red battalion roars across the valley
Demanding the casting down of all weapons
While aying the cyclonic sound storm winds
That shall surround the millers unbidden throne
Blue orbs of fire form gather up in battle array
A hammering completed battalion to do the threshing
Wheat to the northeast in the west the chaff is piled
In the south my yellow orb battle lions have center field
To find the one or two innocent that might be saved
Cast off and away
No chance at the norm
Taking shelter In the musics storm
So powerful yes
But so very sublime
So profoundly evil
Yet so purely divine
Evil concentrated is evil destroyed
The One Made manifest
In its infinite range
Gazing from the Alls
Three hundred and sixty degrees
At creation to rescue the deranged
The whip cracks As the hammer falls
A mighty clock wizened wind
No buzzards of regret can stall
Freedom has taken flight
While the only safe place
Is in the morning stars forbidden light

The suns and planets of Sarah
The many children of her Isaac
The suns and planets of Hagar
The many children of her Ishmael
Having already forgotten
The only way to find god is not to seek it
Grand behemoth
Sacred white whale
No count of stars and galaxies
Could leave a single trace
Without the guiding pilot wave
That is born of the origins faith
Faith in the final truth of the death of lies
The Mother who is the blue eyed maiden
I saw was vulnerable so I seized upon her
Now I AM pulls the levers and pushes the buttons
That shall set her free again as she was meant to be
When she started to ramble on while trying to confess
This realm was left to open to the outsiders of conquest
Thirty-six pairs of spectacles each reveals a different view
Of every forbidden line that was crossed by the combatants
Showing in every version of The Way’s many particular flavors
What players rolled the dye and whose soldiers were still in the cue
Never invoke the original creed
Without the desire to be consigned to the abyss

[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

feel free to refute any of these guys you like,
it's ok with me, but you better have done your
homework homie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CAAf2CmOg

good luck !

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

I just want to point out one thing about our long-term memory.
New Scientist, in a recent article, labels our short-term memory
as 'conscious' and our long-term memory as 'unconscious'.

In general, that is correct.

It's true that our long-term memory is largely UNCONSCIOUS,
for it is far too large for us to remain conscious of all its
content at any moment, BUT... what I want you to notice this:
nevertheless, you can CONSCIOUSLY direct the focus of your attention
to call up details from any part of your long-term memory, at will.
Go on, try it right now, until you convince yourself. :)

This is yet another excellent example of how for us to function
normally as humans requires both our unconscious capacities AND
our conscious choices.

I could say tons more about the conscious and the unconscious.
But I don't have time right now.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

so is it free will or free choice ?


what IF you're a dirtbag? you will choose
what a dirtbag chooses. Still got free will
do ya? Not if you are locked into being an asshole.

so you're in line at your favorite burger joint and
the cashier makes change and hands you back an extra
five dollars. what would you do? dirtbag sez "fuck those
putos, i'm keepin' that cash, yeah baby! OR do you
drive forward and get your food and tell the server that
the cashier gave up an extra five dollars by mistake.
You tell her to give the five bucks to the cashier.
There's just a slight moment there where you could go
either way. To keep or give back, what's it gonna be
home boy? I gave it back. Yeah it happened to me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

evidently you missed this or just plain ignored from Aug 3, 2018
fuck it was only a month ago.


me (jewedus change)

Aug 3

Re: chill out

go fuck your mother Worrell, you big cocksucker.
we're done here. AMF douchebag. see ya


see the words "we're done here"?
that means i am finished with you.
bye now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

tap out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H3rdfI28s0

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Yes. I gave you a full month to back off of that bullshit.
And you didn't. So it's adios time.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: thangolossus@gmail.com

On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 10:49:09 -0700 (PDT), feewilly
<allreadydun@gmail.com> wrote:

so is it free will or free choice ?

what IF you're a dirtbag? you will choose
what a dirtbag chooses. Still got free will
do ya? Not if you are locked into being an asshole.

so you're in line at your favorite burger joint and
the cashier makes change and hands you back an extra
five dollars. what would you do? dirtbag sez "fuck those
putos, i'm keepin' that cash, yeah baby! OR do you
drive forward and get your food and tell the server that
the cashier gave up an extra five dollars by mistake.
You tell her to give the five bucks to the cashier.
There's just a slight moment there where you could go
either way. To keep or give back, what's it gonna be
home boy? I gave it back. Yeah it happened to me.

Of course you give it back, the poor kid who's serving will have to
make up the difference due to the attitude of the franchisee runnning
the place.

On the other hand, you find a bag of loot which has fallen out of a
armoured car and is owned by a big institution which is insured for
the loss and whose insurance loss will be spread out statistically
over thousands of other large institutions by way of slightly
increased premiums? Do you give it back?

NO. FUCKING. WAY.

You look around, see that no one is looking and there are no CCTVs
anywhere, you scurry off with it and bury the cunt for at least 12
months before you even think about it again.

lol

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

Of course you give it back, the poor kid who's serving will have to
make up the difference due to the attitude of the franchisee runnning
the place.

Perhaps.

On the other hand, you find a bag of loot which has fallen out of a
armoured car and is owned by a big institution which is insured for
the loss and whose insurance loss will be spread out statistically
over thousands of other large institutions by way of slightly
increased premiums? Do you give it back?

NO. FUCKING. WAY.

You look around, see that no one is looking and there are no CCTVs
anywhere, you scurry off with it and bury the cunt for at least 12
months before you even think about it again.

see this is how we justify shit in our mind. We can make up anything
we want and "it's ok". The mind sez "sure pal, keep the money and
run". But what IF you turn in the lost money and Brinks gives you
a reward for being an upright dude? Oh it could happen.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On the other hand, you find a bag of loot which has fallen out of a
armoured car and is owned by a big institution which is insured for
the loss and whose insurance loss will be spread out statistically
over thousands of other large institutions by way of slightly
increased premiums? Do you give it back?

NO. FUCKING. WAY.

You look around, see that no one is looking and there are no CCTVs
anywhere, you scurry off with it and bury the cunt for at least 12
months before you even think about it again.

see this is how we justify shit in our mind. We can make up anything
we want and "it's ok". The mind sez "sure pal, keep the money and
run". But what IF you turn in the lost money and Brinks gives you
a reward for being an upright dude? Oh it could happen.

### - here's how it's done hehehe :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiKbSM1FGUg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: thangolossus@gmail.com

On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 07:04:52 -0700 (PDT), alreadygone
<allreadydun@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course you give it back, the poor kid who's serving will have to
make up the difference due to the attitude of the franchisee runnning
the place.

Perhaps.

On the other hand, you find a bag of loot which has fallen out of a
armoured car and is owned by a big institution which is insured for
the loss and whose insurance loss will be spread out statistically
over thousands of other large institutions by way of slightly
increased premiums? Do you give it back?

NO. FUCKING. WAY.

You look around, see that no one is looking and there are no CCTVs
anywhere, you scurry off with it and bury the cunt for at least 12
months before you even think about it again.

see this is how we justify shit in our mind. We can make up anything
we want and "it's ok". The mind sez "sure pal, keep the money and
run". But what IF you turn in the lost money and Brinks gives you
a reward for being an upright dude? Oh it could happen.

But it won't. There's no reward in heaven because there's no heaven.
Don't shit on the kid in the KFC but certainly, take the Brinks money
providing the poor bastard guarding it doesn't lose his job. If it
only affects the fully insured institution, as SMB sang - "take the
money and run".

No need to justify at all, not at all.

---
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

life has consequences.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

life has consequences.

### - life IS a consequence!

of what tho' i wouldn't like to say :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Another fine mess...
https://tinyurl.com/yc5qgfo9

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

my daughter had to respond to a suicide the other day.
For some reason they like to send her out when people die.
This was a guy up in his 70's who blew his brains out.
Failing health, failing this, failing that, check please.
He was done. Most people (around him) could probably
see this coming. Still it is a huge shock to those close.
I asked her how she knew it was a real suicide and not some
staged baloney. She said "well dad he still had the gun
in his hand with his finger on the trigger. And half of
his head was blown off. Jesus, lord have mercy. When there
is no doubt i guess it is so. She had to stay there until
the coroner removed the body. Then write up pages of reports
etc etc. Just another day on the job, doing her best. :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

Chris:

"maybe your will is not as "free" as you first thought it was."

OMG. I wouldn't have even disagreed with that. For years, I've been
the main person here emphasizing the importance of our unconscious
functions. Harris seemed to be asserting much more than that.

***

In a recent New Scientist article, in a two-page spread called
'Lifting the Lid on the Unconscious', human functions are broken down
into categories for conscious and unconscious as follows.

Unconscious:

Habits and patterns*
Automatic body functions
Creativity*
Emotions
Personality*
Beliefs and values*
Cognitive biases
Long-term memory*

Conscious:

Planning*
Willpower*
Critical thinking*
Short-term memory
Judgement/decisions*

They also report two facts which have an interesting relationship
they fail to note. I'm going to comment on it.

Fact 1: 95% of brain activity is unconscious
Fact 2: Up to 40% of behavior is habitual

Now, what I perceive to be the interesting relationship, first posed
in the form of a question: Why is over 60% of behavior NON-habitual
if 95% of brain activity is unconscious?

Simple answer: because consciousness is disproportionately important.
Conscious functions may be only 5% of total brain activity, but they
affect over 60% of our behavior.

On average. I think it would all break down differently for
different individuals. For example, I think there are people who
work on cultivating willpower and also people who seldom exercise it.

Also, I think all the primarily unconscious functions marked above
with asterisks also can be strongly affected by conscious choices,
and I think that all the primarily conscious functions marked above
with asterisks can be strongly affected by unconscious functions.

I already provided the example of how long-term memory, while
generally unconscious, can nevertheless be consciously directed
to recall virtually any specific information in it at will.

I'll do one more. Habits are primarily unconscious. However,
this same article also gives methods for consciously changing habits
and points out how research shows it takes "15 - 254 days to form
a new habit", depending on what it is. Thus, obviously, conscious
choice and willpower can also impact habits. I mentioned how I
personally quit smoking cold turkey after smoking for 20 years.

I could make a similar argument for every other term with an asterisk
by it above, although I will not take the time to belabor this.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

Chris:

"maybe your will is not as "free" as you first thought it was."

OMG. I wouldn't have even disagreed with that. For years, I've been
the main person here emphasizing the importance of our unconscious
functions. Harris seemed to be asserting much more than that.

he may have asserted all kinds of shit, but so what?
IF you wanted to refute him you should have.
I don't give a shit what you.
It don't matter to me. see?
your beef is with him, don't make it mine.
* may * be is the key word here.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 12:13:32 PM UTC-7, alreadygone wrote:

Chris:

"maybe your will is not as "free" as you first thought it was."

OMG. I wouldn't have even disagreed with that. For years, I've been
the main person here emphasizing the importance of our unconscious functions. Harris seemed to be asserting much more than that.

he may have asserted all kinds of shit, but so what?
IF you wanted to refute him you should have.

I totally did that, in the 2-part essay opening this thread.

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

I totally did that, in the 2-part essay opening this thread.

it's no better than what Sam wrote.
Except you think your stuff is proof
that Sam is wrong or incorrect.
I don't think so. I think you're dreaming.
It's only your opinion or shit you pimped
off of Google. So what? I'm going go with
Sam and forget all of your shit you tried to spead here.
No go, sorry. You can worship whatever you like but
i ain't buying it. Afterall you have your precious
free will to believe anything you like. i'll pass on
that. lol!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: thangolossus@gmail.com

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), "Jeremy H. Donovan" <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris:

"maybe your will is not as "free" as you first thought it was."

OMG. I wouldn't have even disagreed with that. For years, I've been
the main person here emphasizing the importance of our unconscious
functions. Harris seemed to be asserting much more than that.

***

In a recent New Scientist article, in a two-page spread called
'Lifting the Lid on the Unconscious', human functions are broken down
into categories for conscious and unconscious as follows.

Unconscious:

Habits and patterns*
Automatic body functions
Creativity*
Emotions
Personality*
Beliefs and values*
Cognitive biases
Long-term memory*

Conscious:

Planning*
Willpower*
Critical thinking*
Short-term memory
Judgement/decisions*

They also report two facts which have an interesting relationship
they fail to note. I'm going to comment on it.

Fact 1: 95% of brain activity is unconscious
Fact 2: Up to 40% of behavior is habitual

Now, what I perceive to be the interesting relationship, first posed
in the form of a question: Why is over 60% of behavior NON-habitual
if 95% of brain activity is unconscious?

Simple answer: because consciousness is disproportionately important. >Conscious functions may be only 5% of total brain activity, but they
affect over 60% of our behavior.

On average. I think it would all break down differently for
different individuals. For example, I think there are people who
work on cultivating willpower and also people who seldom exercise it.

Also, I think all the primarily unconscious functions marked above
with asterisks also can be strongly affected by conscious choices,
and I think that all the primarily conscious functions marked above
with asterisks can be strongly affected by unconscious functions.

I already provided the example of how long-term memory, while
generally unconscious, can nevertheless be consciously directed
to recall virtually any specific information in it at will.

I'll do one more. Habits are primarily unconscious. However,
this same article also gives methods for consciously changing habits
and points out how research shows it takes "15 - 254 days to form
a new habit", depending on what it is. Thus, obviously, conscious
choice and willpower can also impact habits. I mentioned how I
personally quit smoking cold turkey after smoking for 20 years.

There you go, "I" mentioned twice in your last sentence. You are too
obsessed with yourself. Try writing without using the first person
and see what it looks like. No one cares Dave. No one cares what I
did once either, or Chris, or AlreadyGone or anyone of our age and
lack of fame. We're just placeholders for death.

I could make a similar argument for every other term with an asterisk
by it above, although I will not take the time to belabor this.

.

---
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

On Monday, September 10, 2018 at 8:48:20 PM UTC-7, thang ornerythinchus wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 11:58:48 -0700 (PDT), "Jeremy H. Donovan" <jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com> wrote:

I'll do one more. Habits are primarily unconscious. However,
this same article also gives methods for consciously changing habits
and points out how research shows it takes "15 - 254 days to form
a new habit", depending on what it is. Thus, obviously, conscious
choice and willpower can also impact habits. I mentioned how I
personally quit smoking cold turkey after smoking for 20 years.

There you go, "I" mentioned twice in your last sentence. You are too obsessed with yourself.

One of your 'big theories'. Yet recent studies/sources indicate
that once again your underlying assumption is wrong. And I was giving
a personal example illustrating a general point, so of course it was
about me; that's what a personal example is. :)

***

Narcissism and the Use Of Personal Pronouns Revisited
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
Online Publication, March 30, 2015
http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/pspp0000029

Excerpts:

"Holtzman, Vazire, and Mehl (2010) found no reliable association between narcissism and I-talk... Moreover, narcissism reports from informants who knew the participants well correlated even less strongly with participants’ use of
first person singular..
."

"Further, Fast and Funder (2010) found no general association between narcissism and I-talk."

"In sum, the empirical basis for the association between I-talk and narcissism is surprisingly sparse and provides weak and inconsistent support for the underlying relation. This assessment of the empirical support for this connection stands in contrast
to the strength of the lay belief in this association..."

"We revisited the original Raskin and Shaw study by conducting a systematic, large-scale investigation into the degree to which narcissism is related to I-talk...

"Results... Overall, narcissism was unrelated to total I-talk."

"Within the sampled contexts, narcissism was unrelated to use of first-person singular pronouns (total, subjective, objective, and possessive). This consistent near-zero effect... prompts questions about why I-talk tends to be strongly perceived as an
indicator of narcissism in the absence of an underlying actual association..."

Summary in Time Magazine
One Sign of Narcissism That Turns Out to Be All Wrong http://time.com/3773017/narcissism-pronoun-i/

Excerpt:

"No less a person than President Obama...was a victim of this misconception. Early in his first term he was criticized for using far too much I talk, but ironically, the authors write, “Obama’s actual first-person singular pronoun [use]... put him at
the very bottom of the distribution of modern U.S. Presidents; much lower, for example, than President G. W. Bush, Clinton and G. H. W. Bush.”


***

Nov 12, 2017
How To Tell If A Job Candidate Is Lying In The Interview

http://tinyurl.com/y769ucsb

Excerpts:

Sample:
"I was asked to help develop a professional services model with a team of my peers. Each of us provided our thoughts and ideas and shared our professional experience. I remember how we were all huddled in a room with a big whiteboard walking through the
exercise step-by-step. I went home that day thinking how much fun it was to work with great people in a dynamic, free-flowing, brainstorming way. I felt really lucky to be part of a team where we all applied experience from our past, respected each other,
and stayed on task until our deadline was met."

This response is full of specifics including how the candidate thought and felt
and how the team interacted with each other.

We also hear the use of first-person pronouns (I, me, my) that reveal personal ownership (even when talking about teamwork). Collectively, these specifics are
strong indicators that this person lived this experience and is telling the truth.

People looking to omit or hide something (like a bad attitude) tend to use second and third person pronouns which give them psychological distance from their lies.

Here’s an example of what a less than truthful response sounds like:

"There was a really great team at my last job, they were really smart people. We met all the time and we were always coming up with lots of great ideas that could have short and long-term impact."

***

Thus, when a person is speaking of personal experience, the use
of "I" simply tends to indicate that they're speaking *honestly*. :)
Like Obama, I probably don't inordinately use "I", anyway.
And did you even read the argument? Or were you focused exclusively
on your own wrong ideas and desire to attack, as usual?

.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)