• Re: Free Will

    From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 20:13:24
    From: slider@anashram.com

    On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 19:27:54 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    ('Don Juan' had a concept called "not being available". If you stand
    in the middle of a busy road and act like a fool then you're EXPOSING yourself to the possibility of all kinds of bizarre random events. 'Don Juan' said that's a bad idea, because you increase your chances of
    getting clobbered. And that's true. You can choose NOT to do that, minimizing your exposure to potentially bad 'random events'. In other
    words, not even 'random events' are totally random. You can *minimize* negative "random events" using your *free choice*.)

    ### - don juan lol, a pathetic example + that's where you draw your
    wisdom?? :D haha

    There was a merchant in Bagdad who sent his servant to market to buy
    provisions and in a little while the servant came back, white and
    trembling, and said, Master, just now when I was in the marketplace I was jostled by a woman in the crowd and when I turned I saw it was Death that jostled me. She looked at me and made a threatening gesture, now, lend
    me your horse, and I will ride away from this city and avoid my fate. I
    will go to Samarra and there Death will not find me. The merchant lent
    him his horse, and the servant mounted it, and he dug his spurs in its
    flanks and as fast as the horse could gallop he went. Then the merchant
    went down to the marketplace and he saw me standing in the crowd and he
    came to me and said, Why did you make a threating gesture to my servant
    when you saw him this morning? That was not a threatening gesture, I
    said, it was only a start of surprise. I was astonished to see him in
    Bagdad, for I had an appointment with him tonight in Samarra.

    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 11:27:54
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    Part I

    Sam Harris argues that we would not blame a murderer for his acts "if we could see how the wrong genes were being relentlessly transcribed, if we could see how this person's genome and 'entanglement' with other people and ideas and events had sculpted
    the microstructure of his brain so that it was guaranteed to produce violent states of mind, the basis for placing blame would disappear".

    That is all merely begging the question. Harris first implies that genes are fully causative. And they are not. Nor is environment. And to be fair, neither is our free will. But Harris is also asserting indirectly that none of the "people, ideas, and
    events" his hypothetical murderer interacted with were ever in any way modifiable by that person's individual conscious choice. And that's not the truth either.

    The real question: at every step along the way, did the person have ANY chances and choices to do things *differently*. And the real answer in my opinion is almost always: yes, virtually every person alive - with possibly a few exceptions - has
    hundreds of such chances and choices, all along the way. That is indeed why we
    are all to some extent genuinely responsible for our own actions. To have a society where people are not even responsible for their own actions would be more insane than the
    one we already have, if such a thing is possible.

    Harris also makes a big deal out of the fact that "you do not decide the next thing you think". To me, that's a big "so what". His assumption seems to be that "free will" must somehow involve "choosing everything one thinks". That's
    a red herring; it
    is not the case, nor is it even necessary. Because free will is not about "thinking", although it may address it. It's about will, just like it says. And while one may not control everything one thinks (it's totally unnecessary) one still CAN in most
    cases WILL oneself to pay attention to or focus on particular thoughts, ignore or dismiss particular thoughts, and in most cases even CHOOSE which thoughts, if any, one will actually ACT upon. To ACT is more than just "to think" or "to
    think about
    acting".

    Free will is WILL. Not thinking. Free thinking is a different subject, although that may be an interesting subject too. :)

    "Thoughts simply appear in consciousness", Harris says he believes. Well, this
    too, while it might at first appear true, is merely an over-simplification.

    Our thoughts are influenced by everything that happens to us, and by everything
    we choose to do, and not only by our unconscious minds, but also by everything we ever choose to consciously *focus on*. We are capable of directing our attention to
    consciously focus on specific collections of thought. We are not obligated to focus on just ANY thoughts. I am really, really into music; I am not much into pottery or basket-weaving (but now I'm thinking a little bit about pottery and baskets). Such "
    focused attention" may be another 'aspect' of free will. However, I do not think it is the primary nature of free will. I will get to that below.

    While it's true that we don't control all of our thoughts directly (at least, not usually - it is possible to learn to control thought to a relative extent -
    such as with meditation and with formal study), but because thoughts are influenced by
    everything we do and also by what randomly happens (and btw, what randomly happens is itself influenced by what we choose), we have the ability to indirectly significantly influence what we are thinking in general, and are also capable of consciously
    choosing specific subjects to intellectually focus thinking on. I for example, chose to get a college degree in mathematics (although it was the hardest subject for me growing up), so I spent years thinking about math.

    So Harris claims we can't control our thoughts. Yet I spent years directing my thoughts repeatedly toward math, even though it was hard for me.

    Now let's address random events briefly. People like to imagine we have no control over "random events". Again, on the surface that appears to be true. And yet if I have 3 choices of where I could go today, let's say: downtown LA,
    or the top of the San
    Gabriel mountains, or the Foothill Police Department, not only my planned events but also the RANDOM events that could potentially happen in each location are all *different*.

    Thus, my free choices also greatly affect even which potential RANDOM events I may be exposed to on any given day.

    Digression:
    ('Don Juan' had a concept called "not being available". :) If you stand in the
    middle of a busy road and act like a fool then you're EXPOSING yourself to the possibility of all kinds of bizarre random events. 'Don Juan' said that's a bad idea, because
    you increase your chances of getting clobbered. And that's true. You can choose NOT to do that, minimizing your exposure to potentially bad 'random events'. In other words, not even 'random events' are totally random. You can *minimize* negative "
    random events" using your *free choice*.)

    It's even true that certain thoughts can be intrusive and can return against your will. If a thing is bothering you, this may happen. Yet even in this case, if you have developed strength of WILL, you can keep "putting it aside" and refuse to become
    overly concerned with it. OR, you can choose to do something that constructively addresses what keeps bothering you. OR, you can choose to focus your attention on some other major interest that you know can distract you (maybe... listen to music for an
    hour). I know, because I'm good at doing all 3 of those, after a lifetime of practice. But I am good at those things only because for years and years I CHOSE to exercise those capacities.

    Another thing to do that can significantly affect "thinking" is just to regularly exercise your BODY. To do that is also a choice one can make. It takes *will power* to do it regularly and keep doing it. But if you manage to get your body in good
    physical shape and keep it that way, then your thoughts will be less likely to "run away with you" (you'll probably sleep better too). This is my experience.

    Harris acts like he doesn't believe there is such a thing as will power - as if
    all people who are capable of achieving their goals by force of will were merely "blessed" or something. Bullshit. While natural ability certainly exists, and so do all
    manner of other favorable circumstances, to achieve significant goals almost always ALSO takes work. Sustained action. :) Will is just like any other capacity; it can become stronger by exercising it.

    "Thoughts just emerge in consciousness; we are not authoring them," Harris claims. While that may be somewhat true superficially, it is also true that we are not NOT authoring them either (intentional double negative - more one this below). :) The extent
    to which one has control over one's own thoughts is an individual matter, one related to everything one is, including all of one's prior *choices* in life. For example, when working on math problems, I largely thought about math (of course) and focused
    on that subject (although yes, other thoughts could intrude). Similarly, when cooking, I'm focusing my attention mostly on the dishes I'm preparing. etc.

    So Harris isn't looking at thinking deeply. He's acting as if all of our thoughts "just appear" without having any connection to the rest of our lives (lives which always include the effects all of our individual choices all along). And he isn't looking
    at "random chance" very deeply either.

    Harris: "if you can't control your next thought, and you don't know what it's going to be, where is your freedom of will?"

    Jeremy: Sam, my will is located in my major *intentions* which are reflected in
    my *actions*. It is not in my moment-to-moment thoughts. The reason you can't find free will is that you don't seem to know where it lives. You seem to believe the only thing
    brains and bodies can ever do is 'think'. :)

    That is your fundamental mistake, Sam. You should have been kicked out of philosopher's school. I'll tell you one philosopher who was big on WILL. Nietzsche. I don't always agree with him either, but at least he knew that 'will' is important (that may
    even be where Carlos got many of his own strange ideas about will - one of Nietzche's books is even entitled 'Will To Power'). But Sam, you're so clueless
    about it that you don't even realize it exists.

    I've already told the personal story of how I learned how to do lucid dreaming by in the beginning INTENDING (willing myself) to become aware inside of dreams, and then doing it. True, I didn't have total control of this ability, and yet... it worked
    rather well. This is another clear example in my own life of free will. It's not a thing I just "thought about". It was a significant set of ongoing acts which was at first willed and then DONE, and then repeated intentionally over and over. That is
    free will.

    I have also pointed out how virtually every intentional act WITHIN
    a lucid dream is also itself an act of free will. No one can claim that
    "dream environments" are 'causal' in any way over a lucid dreamer.
    They simply are not. A lucid dreamer can do almost *anything* at will
    inside a dream. A lucid dreamer can also override virtually anything
    that is happening in a lucid dream by force of will. A lucid dreamer
    can by pure CHOICE do things that are usually impossible, such as
    walk through walls or transport themselves instantly in space.
    All such lucid dream acts are further examples of free will.

    will
    noun
    1. the faculty by which a person decides on and initiates action.
    2. control deliberately exerted to do something or to restrain one's own impulses.
    3. a deliberate or fixed desire or intention.

    To try to describe it better - 'will' is sort of like "mounting and maintaining
    an internal effort". It is not merely "thinking about one's goals". That's not it. Sometimes it seems like "creating and fostering a belief/feeling that you can do something".
    The immediate content of your thoughts is largely irrelevant while accomplishing whatever it is. Although of course it's best if your thoughts aren't... completely insane or distracting. Will is... "creating impetus". It engenders "a feeling of
    momentum". That's about the best I can describe 'will'.

    (When I was a CC believer, I believed I could 'call upon the force that rules the universe' to assist with this impetus or momentum. I eventually had to drop
    that belief since I had no objective evidence for "it" outside my own mind. But
    I attempted to
    beckon the cosmic force of Intent to provide power to (or perhaps even become) my own personal intent. That was the theory. Unproven, in spite of how I seemed to succeed but only within the private confines of my own dreaming.)

    Harris argues that ALL of our experience "even the simplest conscious experiences are built on unconscious mechanisms... of which we are fundamentally unaware" and that "this machinery also governs what we think and feel and do and intend". Further, he
    claims there were experiments that show how parts of this unconscious processing related to making choices occurs before a person is aware of acting upon a conscious choice. That is only semi-correct (these experiments have been seriously challenged as
    you will see below).

    This "unconscious processing" is one example of what I have been calling 'inputs to decision making' (although they may have other functions too).

    But Harris seems to believe - simply because certain unconscious parts of our minds in some way "register" what we're going to do before we become consciously aware of having made the choice - this means the unconscious aspects must CONTROL everything we
    do. He seems to think our conscious minds provide NO significant input or guidance - to the point where supposedly we have NO conscious control over our own actions.

    I think that is an extreme conclusion not warranted by the evidence. The inference is questionable in several ways (as we will see), and I personally believe it is dead wrong since it differs from a greal deal of my own real world experience.

    One simple way to think about it is: just as it takes some time to process our
    sensory input so that we're always a step behind 'reality', it takes even more time to process our conscious choices ABOUT that 'reality' after our sensory data is assembled,
    so that our conscious awareness of everything we choose to do (especially our choices) is even further behind. The processing of 'the neural aspects of making conscious choices' may simply be even more complex and time-consuming than our sensory
    processing. This in no way means our choices are illusory (or that "unconscious
    machinery" has already automatically decided everything we do).

    There is no reason to necessarily conclude that "the fast machinery" that "registers" our choices before we become aware that we're aware of them is some
    sort of "robotic decision maker". It may just be *recording* our wants before the full conscious
    impact is apparent. Perhaps is necessary to STORE our intended actions somewhere before we can act, perhaps rather like my computer is storing these keystrokes I'm typing in memory slightly before they get written to the screen and I can see them with my
    eyes. That doesn't mean the machinery is "in charge" in any real sense. It may just mean that conscious awareness and choice is a bit slow, relatively speaking. Not that it doesn't exist at all.

    [I wrote the above while reasoning out the issue for myself prior to reading all the research that follows below in Part II, so I left it all in.]

    .

    Continued in part II below...

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From crickets@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:25:20
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    without an impulse my fine little grasshoppers
    you won't be doing anything. do all the thinkin'
    and plannin' you like, but in the end IF you
    don't have the impulse nothing happens.
    There is where your free will be found.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:57:05
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    Yeah, it probably took you 20 seconds to skim over my pieces
    while refusing to even seriously think about it. Right?

    Yet I've now laid out the facts on this matter clearly -
    even if people continue to ignore them. Responsibility was taken
    and another freely chosen task completed. :)

    While all you guys have been able to offer on this topic YOU
    brought up is... knee-jerk flames and barely thought-out positions.

    One more issue, though: maybe not everyone has free will and maybe
    the lack of it applies to both of you? Maybe neither of you ever
    developed your own capacity to have any conscious choice at all?
    LOL. Should I take your word for it and accept that neither of you
    has any free will? Okay, then consider it done. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 21:33:31
    From: slider@anashram.com

    On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 20:57:05 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    Yeah, it probably took you 20 seconds to skim over my pieces
    while refusing to even seriously think about it. Right?

    ### - yeah well, when ya start quoting don juan LOL :)

    i mean what's next: L ron quotes too??




    Yet I've now laid out the facts on this matter clearly -
    even if people continue to ignore them. Responsibility was taken
    and another freely chosen task completed. :)

    ### - it was 'your' choice to continue with it instead of just letting it
    go heh, or perhaps it's your obsessive nature that has you still arguing
    for it because you 'need' it to be true?




    While all you guys have been able to offer on this topic YOU
    brought up is... knee-jerk flames and barely thought-out positions.

    ### - why can't you just accept that some peeps prefer to remain
    open-minded about things?

    why does everything obsessively have to be nailed down??


    One more issue, though: maybe not everyone has free will and maybe
    the lack of it applies to both of you? Maybe neither of you ever
    developed your own capacity to have any conscious choice at all?
    LOL. Should I take your word for it and accept that neither of you
    has any free will? Okay, then consider it done. :)

    ### - well, your 'free-will' so-called did you a shed-load of good didn't
    it in not repeating the same mistakes over & over with crappy cults? else
    you were (and still are then) merely suffering from a lack of intelligence
    and the ability to discern the crap from the real that got you into so
    much trouble!

    either way, your current position isn't very tenable?

    and b'coz what possible use is free will to a dumbass with a closed mind!
    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 14:22:47
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    Just more of the same substanceless baloney. That's all you got. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 22:55:21
    From: slider@anashram.com

    On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:22:47 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    Just more of the same substanceless baloney. That's all you got. :)

    ### - haha that, or you just can't handle having your beliefs thoroughly refuted?

    :D

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to slider on Tuesday, July 31, 2018 17:59:01
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 2:55:30 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:
    On Tue, 31 Jul 2018 22:22:47 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
    wrote:

    Just more of the same substanceless baloney. That's all you got. :)

    ### - haha that, or you just can't handle having your beliefs thoroughly refuted?

    :D

    In my years here I switched from being a CC believer to a skeptic,
    precisely because I CAN and totally did handle that.

    You are the one who has never handled it. But it's not your fault
    since you have no conscious choice over your own beliefs. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Wednesday, August 01, 2018 08:35:33
    From: slider@anashram.com

    rationalisation-man wrote...

    ### - haha that, or you just can't handle having your beliefs thoroughly
    refuted

    :D

    I switched from being a CC believer to a skeptic,
    precisely because I CAN and totally did handle that.

    ### - correction: you went from being a CoS-nutjob believer to being a cc-nutjob believer to now (supposedly) being a scientific-nutjob believer,
    so nothing's changed except maybe the tune you've been singing all-along
    and then foisting on others; and 'coz underneath ALL that you're obviously STILL just another nutjob believer!

    and if anyone wants 'proof' of that then one only has to look at the way
    you've been incessantly AND obsessively banging-on about trumpy like a
    complete loon for the last 2 YEARS day-in and day-out just LIKE a nutjob???

    oh you're a reformed/changed character alright! WE 'believe' ya! even tho' 1000's wouldn't!

    we honestly believe ya jeremy!

    riiiiiiiiight.... :)

    2 roads diverged in the wood and 'you' - YOU took the one MOST traveled
    by!?

    and perforce it hasn't made ANY fuckin' difference whatsoever! (cracking
    up...)

    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Wednesday, August 01, 2018 09:09:14
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    You know, Trump knows damn well that he's constantly lying. And he
    doesn't care at all. He's not even concerned with truth or with serving
    the populace. His only concern is with pushing his own demented 'agenda',
    even if he has to lie 1000 times to do it. You are similar, Slider.

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to crickets on Wednesday, August 01, 2018 08:57:15
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Tuesday, July 31, 2018 at 12:25:21 PM UTC-7, crickets wrote:
    without an impulse my fine little grasshoppers
    you won't be doing anything. do all the thinkin'
    and plannin' you like, but in the end IF you
    don't have the impulse nothing happens.
    There is where your free will be found.

    Give 3 examples of these 'impulses' of yours.
    After you give 3 examples, I'll show you why you're wrong
    in a post that takes less than 3 minutes to read. :)

    (And if you fail to provide examples you're wrong by forfeit.)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Wednesday, August 01, 2018 18:02:33
    From: slider@anashram.com

    On Wed, 01 Aug 2018 17:09:14 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    You know, Trump knows damn well that he's constantly lying. And he
    doesn't care at all.

    ### - but we've discussed this?? yes he's lying and misdirecting on a
    massive scale! that's exactly what he's been doing ever since he got in! deliberately! deliberately sending mixed messages!



    He's not even concerned with truth or with serving
    the populace. His only concern is with pushing his own demented 'agenda', even if he has to lie 1000 times to do it.

    ### - in 'his' eyes (and the eyes of any right-wing politician) of course
    he's not concerned with truth as far as the public goes! they like to
    see/view themselves as leaders! and what the 'public' thinks doesn't
    fucking matter one iota once they get into power! they'll say/do anything
    to 'get' into power, and once there they'll then do/say anything to remain there! usually by starting a war! and 'coz then they can just 'tell'
    everyone what to do!

    personally, i think his now 'standard/predictable' behaviour of confusion, contradiction & misdirection, is all getting a bit old by now? and one can almost read between the lines by now as to what he's actually gonna really
    do in any given situation, while undoubtedly behind the scenes they's
    robbing the world blind!

    it's what they... do! :)




    You are similar, Slider.

    ### - you're actually comparing 'moi' to the prez of the united states??
    like wow maan! :)

    but then i really dunno that am cut-out (or ready) for 'that' kinda
    office!?

    i mean, have had some pretty good promotions before... but this??

    fuck off! :)

    roflmao :)


    (but in some distant parallel universe where slider is now the prez
    hahaha...)

    first order of the day:

    ok folks! here we go! are ya listening?? (the willing crowd roars yeaaaa!)

    is the whole 'planet' listening??? (global roars of YEAAAA!)

    then everyone better get ready to... ROCK!!! (deafening global roar!)

    an' 'coz my first order of the day my friends & companions, is that...

    EVERYBODY'S GONNA GO WILD!!! YEAAAAAA!

    (booming/pounding music starts up...) WILD! (cheers!) - WILD! (cheers!) -
    WILD! (roars!)

    and the crowd goes... well... WILD! :)

    and so the planet is saved, as a new era of increased human awareness is finally ushered in for one and for all so there'll be lot less dickheads
    around in the future to mess it all up...

    yeaaaaaaa!

    (slider places his hat on the ground and slowly spins it around a full 360 degrees anticlockwise)

    everyone smiles....

    the end. ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From crickets@1:229/2 to All on Wednesday, August 01, 2018 20:00:54
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    Give 3 examples of these 'impulses' of yours.

    why don't you give 3 examples of your own impulses?
    What you don't have any impulses? Why is that?
    Maybe because you think way too much BEFORE you act.
    Here's how it goes, first you have the impulse,
    it comes in. Second you act on the impulse or
    better said is that YOU follow your impulse.
    Example: "Worrell turn left at the next street".
    Then turn on your turn indicator (perhaps sometimes)
    and then turn the wheel of the car in that direction.
    See how impulses work? They send you a signal and
    then bingo, you act on it.

    After you give 3 examples, I'll show you why you're wrong

    Show yourself you are wrong, i dare you hotshot.

    in a post that takes less than 3 minutes to read. :)

    Ten seconds tops speedreader boy.

    (And if you fail to provide examples you're wrong by forfeit.)

    Oh you run the game do you? You call the shots, play umpire
    and then broadcast to the world do you? lol j/k geez.
    refutey tooty. honk honk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 15:27:23
    From: slider@anashram.com

    just tryin' to do it with 'good' intent.

    why be a peterhead ?

    ### - it was actually your 'detached humour' (rather than your timed
    blows) that gained you the higher degree (and speed) there... even to
    helping the fucker back onto his feet at the end while making-lite of it
    all... that was pretty cool (you were protecting rather than merely
    defending yourself?? now who said/suggested that i wonder lol:)

    anyone can act outta anger so that doesn't count + their anger only makes
    them clumsy; there can be no finesse wherever anger is involved...

    expecting 'him' to 'take' it all in good humour tho' is another thing altogether heh...

    and 'coz roll-over now and he'll hurt ya!

    what was it some philosopher-dude said: "from you but step on a road you
    begin to see it everywhere"??

    how true!

    "i can't go back now can i?"

    "no... but even if you could, would you really want to?"

    --neo to morphious in the matrix :)

    no one will ever call you a wuss (part woman/part puss haha) again!

    and no more bandaids for you! huh boss? ;)

    you did good! :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 14:05:31
    From: slider@anashram.com

    silent cricket wrote...


    Give 3 examples of these 'impulses' of yours.

    why don't you give 3 examples of your own impulses?
    What you don't have any impulses? Why is that?

    ### - whoa! nice roundhouse kick there glasshopper! (where the fuck did
    that come from??)

    (it's like a scene from the bruce lee movie 'the big boss' lol)

    ok up the stairs ya go to the next level bruce! :)



    Maybe because you think way too much BEFORE you act.

    ### - the big tall lanky ones are always sooo slooow hehehe...

    kick 'em in the leg on tuesday and it's only on friday they even notice it hehe...



    Here's how it goes, first you have the impulse,
    it comes in. Second you act on the impulse or
    better said is that YOU follow your impulse.

    ### - why explain? (and 'coz while you're explaining they're already
    planning their next strike!)




    Example: "Worrell turn left at the next street".
    Then turn on your turn indicator (perhaps sometimes)
    and then turn the wheel of the car in that direction.
    See how impulses work? They send you a signal and
    then bingo, you act on it.

    ### - nah he wont get that at all and are only leaving yourself open to
    further digs (demonstrate rather than explain is always better...)



    After you give 3 examples, I'll show you why you're wrong

    Show yourself you are wrong, i dare you hotshot.

    ### - whuuduff! right in the soft part of his belly! (goaaaal!)




    in a post that takes less than 3 minutes to read. :)

    Ten seconds tops speedreader boy.

    ### - hahaha stunned him + he's going into slow-mo mode now :)



    (And if you fail to provide examples you're wrong by forfeit.)

    Oh you run the game do you?

    ### - bam!



    You call the shots, play umpire

    ### - wallop!


    and then broadcast to the world do you? lol

    ### - and he's... down!





    j/k geez.
    refutey tooty. honk honk

    ### - (slider, with a grin solemnly offers the box of bandaids to jeremy instead? hahaha...)

    kicked his ass you did! and is too late for apologies now! hah! :D

    (you'll have to watch your back for a bit now 'coz he ain't gonna forget
    that for a while...)

    however, that move gained you your 2nd degree glasshopper (= 2 black
    belts) so you'll likely get a bit more respect from him now, assuming he doesn't try to destroy you first that is heh, so keep your guard up or you
    wont see it coming!

    otherwise it was very well done! :)

    (am actually proud of ya hahaha...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From crickets@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 06:59:47
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    just tryin' to do it with 'good' intent.

    why be a peterhead ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From crickets@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 07:38:37
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    free will at your service


    (fee willy) ha ha

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 18:14:44
    From: slider@anashram.com

    (fee willy) ha ha

    ### - "Laughter is the sound of freedom." --Sheldon Kopp

    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 17:07:25
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    Commentary from one of the Facebook forums on LD:

    Brian Aherne:
    "imho WILDs are the 'only' way to fly ;) and the easiest..."

    Azalea Rees:
    "I disagree with Brian. WILDs are not the easiest for me
    or most people I’ve spoken with, dream induced lucid dreams
    tend to be easier, especially for beginners. Some people do seem
    to have a natural talent for WILDs though. You may be one of them.
    That is awesome!"

    ***

    Well Azalea, he's already been told this plenty of times. :)

    Now, since this is a 'free will' thread, what is your opinion:
    if a person finds WILD or DILD easier, is that *pre-determined*
    automatically by all their previous life choices and the nature
    of their brain? Iow, is it all purely due to "natural talent"
    if one is capable of doing WILD? (Hint: I know it's not so
    simple already since I've done both DILD and WILD, although
    I do seem to have more "natural talent" for DILD). But Slider,
    you've claimed repeatedly that anyone can do WILD if they TRY
    and you've even claimed it's easier than DILD (in spite of
    how several people have disagreed with you on that). But for anyone
    to choose to do WILD and then succeed at going into LD that way...
    isn't that free will? You haven't answered this question.

    And you couldn't possibly have thought much about the 2 posts
    I wrote on free will since you asked me a completely stupid
    question after I posted them, wanting to know: "why does
    everything have to be nailed down?" when the final conclusion
    of the 2 huge posts I made was that this matter definitely
    ISN'T nailed down yet. :)

    I simply have a strong opinion about it (one still subject
    to potential refutation by further evidence, as always).
    I have clearly expressed that opinion in numerous ways
    and have also supplied studies and argumentation sufficient
    to refute the position taken by Sam Harris. I doubt if you
    even listened to see what his opinion was. You just make noise.
    Because you have almost no integrity. And everyone can see it. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From crickets@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 14:05:44
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    i had the impulse to post this.
    and guess what? i sure the fuck did.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkKYFpjAZoc

    where's your impulse to listen?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to crickets on Thursday, August 02, 2018 17:02:24
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Wednesday, August 1, 2018 at 8:00:55 PM UTC-7, crickets wrote:
    Give 3 examples of these 'impulses' of yours.

    why don't you give 3 examples of your own impulses?
    What you don't have any impulses? Why is that?
    Maybe because you think way too much BEFORE you act.
    Here's how it goes, first you have the impulse,
    it comes in. Second you act on the impulse or
    better said is that YOU follow your impulse.
    Example: "Worrell turn left at the next street".
    Then turn on your turn indicator (perhaps sometimes)
    and then turn the wheel of the car in that direction.
    See how impulses work? They send you a signal and
    then bingo, you act on it.

    After you give 3 examples, I'll show you why you're wrong

    Show yourself you are wrong, i dare you hotshot.

    in a post that takes less than 3 minutes to read. :)

    Ten seconds tops speedreader boy.

    (And if you fail to provide examples you're wrong by forfeit.)

    Oh you run the game do you? You call the shots, play umpire
    and then broadcast to the world do you? lol j/k geez.
    refutey tooty. honk honk

    Did you even read the studies (and examples) I provided?
    I didn't conduct those studies. The final study referenced was a
    2018 qualitative review of all the studies on free will concluding
    there is no good evidence for the position Sam Harris holds.
    So, far from Slider's dumb question to me "why does everything
    always have to be nailed down?" Indeed, they don't, and this matter
    is NOT nailed down. And that was the point. Yet I also gave clear
    and detailed examples from my own life, and no one has refuted them.

    The only example you gave is generic: "an impulse to turn left"? :)
    That's the best example you could come up with? WHY turn left?
    In what way was that 'impulse' supposedly pre-determined by all
    of my previous existence so I was totally bound to follow it
    no matter what? Thus somehow denying free will? How? It's not
    even clear you're arguing against free will. Are you? Do you think
    your 'impulses' all come from angels or something? :)

    Refutation: a micro-second later I notice a 'no left turn' sign.
    I must choose to go straight or turn right in spite of originally
    wanting to turn left, OR, I COULD quickly look around and purposely
    CHOOSE to break the law by turning left there anyway... Ah, but in
    the next micro-second I see a grocery store up the street to my
    left and realize I could get the chicken my partner had asked me
    to pick up for dinner THERE instead of where I'd thought to go,
    so instead I DO turn left after all, but into that store, NOT left
    where I had an original impulse to turn. However, the moment I enter
    the parking lot I happen to glance down at the console and see a
    free pizza coupon I was saving which expires today, so after
    mulling it over for a second or two I choose not to get chicken
    after all, flip a bitch and drive BACK down the same street I had
    just come on, heading toward home. Then I realize I could turn right
    where I'd originally had "the impulse" to turn left, but now I choose
    not to, because the original impulse only happened because I was
    planning to go to a deli down that street to get some potato salad
    we really like before going to a DIFFERENT store on the same street
    to pick up chicken, but now, since we're not going to have chicken
    I don't need either item anymore. I return home, realizing I'd been
    out driving to the store for no good reason, yet now wondering if
    there's anything constructive to do on the way back. I decide to
    stop at a station conveniently on the right side of the street and
    fill up my gas tank so the trip wasn't a loss. BUT when I get there
    I decide I still have plenty of gas so I just go on home anyway.

    After the "impulse to turn left" (which you never even gave
    a reason for so it was an incomplete example to start with),
    I change my mind five times based on both external circumstances
    and on my own ability to override any previous "directives"
    if I so choose. (I could also have chosen to let the coupon
    expire and gone ahead and picked up chicken as requested,
    and had I done so I could have turned right at the original
    street on the way back to go and get potato salad, reversing
    the previous order of picking up chicken and potato salad).
    You believe it was somehow "pre-determined" that I would
    choose pizza, and not get gas? How? At any point in this
    story on a given day I might have done something different.
    For example, I might have chosen to GO into the store but
    instead of chicken picked up pork chops, after realizing
    I wasn't in the mood for chicken OR pizza. OR, perhaps when
    I get in there the chops LOOK better than the chicken,
    so I would then have another choice: do as I was asked,
    or do as I choose, based on the circumstances of the moment.
    You act like you believe it's always "pre-determined" what I
    will do in all these complex scenarios? By my genetics?
    By my upbringing? By what others tell me to do? No.
    None of these factors are binding. It's not pre-determined.

    I gave several examples of "impulses" there and of how one very
    often overrides a given impulse either due to external
    circumstances, by free choices, or by some combo of the two.

    Chris, your example and your 'reasoning' (if one can even call
    it that) were really very weak. It required me to supply most of
    the example. It's almost hard to tell if you're arguing for or
    against free will. :)

    And as for your YouTube. It is my custom to almost always click on
    every YouTube posted by everyone here. But today I chose NOT to
    click on yours. So I have no idea what it was. Really. Yet another demonstration of free choice. :)

    But I have given MUCH stronger examples. One involved how I was sent
    to a Methodist Christian Church continually for my first 12 years.
    I was first 'baptized' as a helpless infant, then as a child sent
    to 'Sunday school', as my own parents reinforced an indoctrination
    into Christianity. We all went to church almost every Sunday.
    My mom played church hymns on the home piano throughout childhood.
    I was also a "Boy Scout" for 5 years. That organization also
    attempts to indoctrinate members into belief in God (indeed to
    this day they accept gays and even girls yet turn away atheists.)
    Yet here I am an atheist, after all this early indoctrination.
    How is that not a strong argument for free will?

    "Are You Going With Me?" can be... an important choice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q1mUfMjnJ4

    [Notice the album cover. :) ]

    Sorry, but you guys are both arguing like boobs in this thread...

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Friday, August 03, 2018 01:56:48
    From: slider@anashram.com

    On Fri, 03 Aug 2018 01:07:25 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    Azalea Rees:
    "I disagree with Brian. WILDs are not the easiest for me
    or most people I’ve spoken with, dream induced lucid dreams
    tend to be easier, especially for beginners. Some people do seem
    to have a natural talent for WILDs though. You may be one of them.
    That is awesome!"

    ### - haha had several early run-in's with that nut, she was just someone
    who is/was a staunch defender of dilds was all, and so invested in them (selling/recommending shit teas and crap) that she just couldn't accept
    any challenge to her entrenched position; took instant objection to it all
    and an instant naysayer for very personal reasons of her own rather than
    ever examine her own position again, and very spiteful with it to boot!
    (she's the one i suspect left the 1-star amazon review heh) + like you
    admits that WILDs were too difficult for her in the past (the 'old' method
    of doing them for sure as it usually included sp) but didn't wanna hear
    about anything new either...

    got very angry indeed about even the suggestion that dilds were outmoded
    lol...

    felt threatened by that she did...

    just like you :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From feewilly@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 18:52:05
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    oh fuck you're dumb ass and hopeless.

    you give me a headache with your horseshit.

    you are full of your head. stay in your

    head you'll die that way. Good luck fuckhead.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 03:27:16
    From: slider@anashram.com

    oh fuck you're dumb ass and hopeless.

    you give me a headache with your horseshit.

    you are full of your head. stay in your

    head you'll die that way. Good luck fuckhead.

    ### - hahaha + laffing at chris cussing/swaying on his tightrope tryin' to
    keep his balance...

    all he (or anyone) can do is to twang your cable a bit mate, they can't
    knock you off it!

    they can only rock it a bit... if ya let 'em!

    unfortunately, he's one of those: you're either with me or against me
    types?

    there's no middle-position/ground to speak of!

    and is defo old-school because of that...

    (the 'old school' mandela made redundant/upgraded for example...)

    'extremes' are out jeremy! either/or thinking has run its course by
    bringing us all to brink of disaster! - middle-ground/compromise is to be
    the next big thing :)

    in-out in-out
    ya shaked it all about
    ya did the hokey-cokey
    and ya's turned around
    but now you're all outta date!
    oi!

    hahaha :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 01:27:24
    From: slider@anashram.com

    as usual wrote...

    ### - so if free will doesn't exist then everything must be...
    predetermined??

    no! who said that? no one said that!

    you're just assuming that b'coz you need everything nailed down!

    like whatever happened to... spontaneity? and improvisation??

    how do ya nail 'those' fuckers down???

    geez you'll be nailing Art down next!?

    that or chucking it out with the bathwater 'coz ya can't!

    you want everything black & white and it just ain't!

    :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Donovan@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 22:29:19
    From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

    See, you really didn't listen to the
    Sam Harris speech either just as I
    thought. "Who said that?" he wonders. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Donovan@1:229/2 to All on Thursday, August 02, 2018 22:25:31
    From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

    Ha. Chris finally loses it.
    I was wondering how far his Mr. Peaceful
    routine would go? :) Dude, at least you
    tried to 'get some culture'. Just made
    the mistake of picking Sam Harris,
    that's all.

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 15:04:14
    From: slider@anashram.com

    ### - lol it's no good 'acting' like you've won some debate, because i
    don't give 2-fucks what you say/suggest, and/or whom you cite that backs
    up your ass-inine lame arguments come to that heh... there's something
    going-on with free will that isn't all black & white and that's what you
    don't like!

    me, am perfectly content with the situation 'knowing' that intellect &
    reason alone can't account for everything + have my own experience to
    refer to... geez someone but 'mentions' free will and we get days and
    pages of crap from 'you' about it?? heh...

    methinks you doth protest too much sir! :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to feewilly on Friday, August 03, 2018 08:33:16
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Thursday, August 2, 2018 at 6:52:06 PM UTC-7, feewilly wrote:
    oh fuck you're dumb ass and hopeless.
    you give me a headache with your horseshit.
    you are full of your head. stay in your
    head you'll die that way. Good luck fuckhead.

    How ironic. I come in completely worn out from 6 hours of difficult
    manual labor in 95-degree heat to witness the superb unintentionally
    comedic timing of Krusty the Klown telling me "you live in your head".

    I wish. :)

    I've done hard manual labor every single day for the last week.
    We got forced to trim every tree on our wildly overgrown property
    (I actually prefer it that way) by the fire department, to avoid
    a $500 fine. They just left 30 minutes ago after giving us an "okay". :)

    That was a shit ton of hard physical labor. We stuffed 8 tree waste
    containers (4 last week and 4 this week) full to the brim plus filled
    about 25 large heavy duty yard waste bags with trimmings and clippings
    and dead leaves and branches. Had to trim more than a dozen big trees.

    Also, one important point I made in my essay is that the health of
    the BODY is important to every aspect one's mental state, including
    one's capacity for acts of will. And that's the truth, sonny.


    feewilly (probably just a typo) also wrote:
    What other people think about free will is meaningless to me,
    just as what most people think about anything.

    Sam Harris might claim that opinion was *determined* purely
    by your having had such poor thinking skills all your life.
    Yet Sam's aren't all that much better. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to slider on Friday, August 03, 2018 08:40:02
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Friday, August 3, 2018 at 7:04:24 AM UTC-7, slider wrote:
    me, am perfectly content with the situation 'knowing' that intellect &
    reason alone can't account for everything...

    Uh, right. Will, for example, isn't intellect or reason.
    You guys are both unintentionally comedic. :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to david.j.worrell@gmail.com on Friday, August 03, 2018 16:57:51
    From: slider@anashram.org

    On Fri, 03 Aug 2018 16:40:02 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

    me, am perfectly content with the situation 'knowing' that intellect &
    reason alone can't account for everything...

    Uh, right. Will, for example, isn't intellect or reason.
    You guys are both unintentionally comedic. :)

    ### - whatever 'will' is, and if it even exists at all apart from the mere concept of it alone, it pertains/alludes to an area where reason &
    intellect obviously doesn't prevail; so there's really no point talking/intellectualising about it! the rest is just 'observational' shit
    from a non-intellectual pov (somewhat like sartre sitting in that park tripping without any acid) perforce which will never make any 'sense' per
    se unless one is perhaps an existentialist... poet!

    you not only 'think' very badly jeremy... you think too much :)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From feewilly@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 09:08:29
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    king of wild writes:

    you not only 'think' very badly jeremy... you think too much :)

    his new name? ready?
    "dances with(in) his own mind"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From slider@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 17:23:20
    From: slider@anashram.com

    his new name? ready?
    "dances with(in) his own mind"

    ### - and here's a word from our sponsors messers: sartre, camus, rimbaud, henry miller and oh just about every artist the world-over in every shape, verse & form who's ever fuckin'... lived!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDwDSuFnf2c

    his very next title being about someone standing up to authority and
    winding-up shot dead for all his troubles lol, but we wont go into that
    hahaha ;)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From feewilly@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 12:07:05
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0GN4urbA_c

    take a look or forgetabout it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Donovan@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 12:10:36
    From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

    Your ass? Ass impulses do happen...
    They're called farts. Free will can hold
    them in though. Right? :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From feewilly@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 09:04:42
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    mr. correcto all the time states:

    Sam Harris might claim that opinion was *determined* purely
    by your having had such poor thinking skills all your life.
    Yet Sam's aren't all that much better. :)

    really?
    and you are qualified to make this statement by having
    done what? trim trees is it today? lol! what can't
    afford some beaners to do some work for ya or did you
    just have to do all the work to prove how vital you are?
    dude that pad i had up in Oregon i was outside almost
    everyday bagging and cutting shit. Off to the dump 2 or 3
    times a day. It was a never-ending job. But boy did
    i have fun sitting on the porch afterwards drinking a
    cold Hamm's beer. Mmmm, Hamms: the beer refreshing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Donovan@1:229/2 to All on Friday, August 03, 2018 12:07:42
    From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

    I did have a little Mexican guy helping
    for a few days, but then his car broke
    down and I got stuck with some of the
    hardest work with only days before the
    deadline.

    So you seem to criticize me for doing
    the work myself then admit you did too.
    Hmm. Another puzzling Chris gambit.

    And where do think you dance from?
    Your liver? Your ads? You do realize
    that your brain controls what you do,
    just as mine does, Right? You don't
    think your impulses come from God
    or from your balls or something, Right?
    :)

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From feewilly@1:229/2 to Jeremy H. Donovan on Friday, August 03, 2018 12:25:23
    From: allreadydun@gmail.com

    Jeremy H. Donovan wrote:


    I did have a little Mexican guy helping
    for a few days, but then his car broke
    down and I got stuck with some of the
    hardest work with only days before the
    deadline.

    oh shit! i guess shit happens don't it?
    sure it does. good workers are hard to
    find (if you're blind maybe).

    So you seem to criticize me for doing
    the work myself then admit you did too.
    Hmm. Another puzzling Chris gambit.

    no, no one is criticizing anyone.
    you're offended over nothing once again.
    you must have critical ears or eyes, lol!

    And where do think you dance from?

    you take it a step further homeboy.
    you're having a romance with your big cabeza.

    as usual you take it the wrong way and
    make big shit out of it. you're a pain
    in the ass to talk to at times. i suppose
    if we had these conversations in person most
    of the disagreements could be corrected on the spot.
    but who has time for this crap, it's just easier
    to type and click.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From LowRider44M@1:229/2 to All on Saturday, August 04, 2018 01:26:55
  • From LowRider44M@1:229/2 to All on Saturday, August 04, 2018 02:04:21
    From: intraphase@gmail.com

    I think I skirt all these issues with the Mind Vs. Brain arguments.
    The mind is the player composer the brain is the instrument orchestra.

    I've seen people so decimated by mental illness that they are devoid of will.

    My level of mental competence allowed me to survive and obey the law,
    but my will to have the normal levels of pace and persistence required
    to thrive in a competitive society did not exist and there was a time
    when those lacks of fortitude and endurance could have rendered me insane
    and rebellious against society and life itself. I had to let go of what is perceived as positive will and its ability to actualize tangible success.

    In the letting go I found what CC related to, the eternal and the infinite
    in everything I focused my attention on; the most horrific and the most beautiful were the dissonance and harmony of a symphony so complex all I
    had to do was achieve occasional moments of silence to perceive it in its
    full splendor.

    The brain pleads its case to the mind, yet the mind sprung from the brain.
    The mind finally understands it must become Truth and allow the brain to die.

    Horror Speech
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPPGMNOLaMw

    The brain will abuse the mind and drive it insane if not fought against.
    At what point might the mind might have prevailed and defeated the brain
    yet kept it alive as a guarded servant is the realm of both art and science.

    In the end the brain shall die but the mind can leave an indelible statement. Ode To Joy
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fQG4CcoRuM

    Beethoven suffered through manic depression, alcoholism, a brutal chilhood
    and yet twice a week the church across the street from me plays Ode To Joy.

    Jesus said: "In my fathers house there are many mansions."
    They are the minds that persevered unto death and love the brain as the beast. Trowel by trowel, brick by brick a mansion is built in the permanent mind that exists in The Zero - Almighty. Boats and ships are built in The One - God as an
    ocean of points hiding The Zero inside.

    Some choose mostly mind(human creator) some choose mostly brain(animal kingdom).

    Man is mind, Woe Man is emotion unchecked by the pilot-captain-navigatoor.

    Most Of The Time
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq7EM8jjNUs

    Most of the time
    I'm clear focused all around
    Most of the time
    I can keep both feet on the ground
    I can follow the path
    I can read the signs
    Stay right with it
    When the road unwinds
    I can handle whatever
    I stumble upon
    I don't even notice
    She's gone
    Most of the time
    Most of the time
    It's well understood
    Most of the time
    I wouldn't change it if I could
    I can't make it all match up
    I can hold my own
    I can deal with the situation
    Right down to the bone
    I can survive,
    And I can endure
    And I don't even think
    About her
    Most of the time
    Most of the time
    My head is on straight
    Most of the time
    I'm strong enough not to hate
    I don't build up illusion
    'till it makes me sick
    I ain't afraid of confusion
    No matter how thick
    I can smile in the face
    Of mankind
    Don't even remember
    What her lips felt like on mine
    Most of the time
    Most of the time
    She ain't even in my mind
    I wouldn't know her if I saw her
    She's that far behind
    Most of the time
    I can't even be sure
    If she was ever with me
    Or if I was ever with her
    Most of the time
    I'm halfway content
    Most of the time
    I know exactly where it all went
    I don't cheat on myself
    I don't run and hide
    Hide from the feelings
    That are buried inside
    I don't compromise
    And I don't pretend
    I don't even care
    If I ever see her again
    Most of the time

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Donovan@1:229/2 to All on Sunday, August 05, 2018 11:16:52
    From: jeremyhdonovan@gmail.com

    Lowrider:
    "I've seen people so decimated by mental illness that they are devoid of will."

    I agree that there is most likely huge
    variation in the individual capacity for
    significant acts of will. It's like
    everything else - use it or lose it.

    And yeah, the higher dimensional brain
    topology was a *very* important result.
    That probably is how memories are stored.

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From LowRider44M@1:229/2 to Jeremy H. Donovan on Monday, August 06, 2018 14:37:38
    From: intraphase@gmail.com

    On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 2:16:52 PM UTC-4, Jeremy H. Donovan wrote:
    Lowrider:
    "I've seen people so decimated by mental illness that they are devoid of
    will."

    I agree that there is most likely huge
    variation in the individual capacity for
    significant acts of will. It's like
    everything else - use it or lose it.

    And yeah, the higher dimensional brain
    topology was a *very* important result.
    That probably is how memories are stored.

    .

    Still absorbing that 10D wells stuff.
    It relates to stereo image memory creation.
    With Hippocampus doing a sketch and portrait of the memory.
    While the cortexes are shooting and developing the frame by frame film level.

    For fifty years they thought it was a mono hippocampus to mono cortexes process.
    Some where in the new understanding of memory shall come more efficient cures for PTSD, definetely is an out of phase, out of tune process occurring when multiple max level stressors occur without time for stereo memory formation, with full Icon-Program-Content-Scan ready

    []

    Laura Donnelly, Health Editor
    7 April 2017 • 4:00pm
    Scientists have discovered the secret of how memories are made - the brain makes two copies of every
    event, in a discovery they described as “beautiful”. Researchers said even they were surprised when
    they realized the secret of how recollections are created and stored. They found that the brain “doubles
    up" by simultaneously making two memories of events.
    One is for the present and the second is for the long-term, they found.
    It had been thought that all memories start as a short-term memory and are then
    slowly converted into
    a lifetime version. Experts said the findings from MIT in the US and a team from Japan were “beautiful
    and convincing”. Two parts of the brain are involved in collecting and storing personal experiences.
    The hippocampus collects short-term memories while the cortex retains long-term
    memories.
    That discovery was made in the 1950s after the case of man whose hippocampus was damaged as a
    result of epilepsy surgery.
    Henry Molaison
    Henry Molaison changed scientists' understanding of how memories work Henry Molaison was no
    longer able to make new memories - ones from before the operation remained intact. Scientists decided
    then that memories must be formed in the hippocampus and then moved to the cortex where they are
    "banked". The new experiments, by the Riken-MIT Center for Neural Circuit Genetics, carried out on
    mice, have established a very different theory. They involved watching the way memories were formed
    as brain cells responded to a shock. Light was then beamed into the brain to control the activity of
    individual neurons, switching memories on and off.
    The results, published in the journal Science, found that in fact, memories were formed simultaneously
    in the hippocampus and the cortex. Researchers said the cortex’s long-term memory did not seem to be
    used in the first few days after memories were formed, when it was “immature or silent”.
    When scientists turned off the short-term memory, the shock event was forgotten. Yet the mice could
    be made to remember by manually switching the long-term memory on.
    Prof Susumu Tonegawa, the director of the research centre, said: “This is contrary to the popular
    hypothesis that has been held for decades.
    "This is a significant advance compared to previous knowledge, it's a big shift."
    He said the discovery was “surprising”.

    The study also found the long-term memory never matured if the connection between the hippocampus
    and the cortex was blocked - suggesting that over time, the balance of power shifts to the cortex.
    Scientists find secret of reversing bad memories How to wipe a bad memory
    Dr Amy Milton, who researches memory at Cambridge University, said the study was "beautiful, elegant
    and extremely impressive". She told the BBC News website: "I'm quite surprised.
    "The idea you need the
    cortex for memories I'm comfortable with, but the fact it's so early is a surprise. "This is one study, but I
    think they've got a strong case, I think it's convincing and I think this will tell us about how memories are
    stored in humans as well,” she said.
    Scientists said the finding could also help to uncover how diseases such as dementia work. One of Prof
    Susumu Tonegawa’s previous studies showed mice with Alzheimer's were still forming memories but
    were not able to retrieve them. "Understanding how this happens may be relevant
    in brain disease
    patients," he said.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
  • From Jeremy H. Denisovan@1:229/2 to All on Tuesday, August 07, 2018 11:44:06
    From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

    On Monday, August 6, 2018 at 2:37:38 PM UTC-7, LowRider44M wrote:
    On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 2:16:52 PM UTC-4, Jeremy H. Donovan wrote:
    Lowrider:
    "I've seen people so decimated by mental illness that they are devoid of
    will."

    I agree that there is most likely huge
    variation in the individual capacity for
    significant acts of will. It's like
    everything else - use it or lose it.

    And yeah, the higher dimensional brain
    topology was a *very* important result.
    That probably is how memories are stored.

    .

    Still absorbing that 10D wells stuff.
    It relates to stereo image memory creation.
    With Hippocampus doing a sketch and portrait of the memory.
    While the cortexes are shooting and developing the frame by frame film level.

    Yeah, it's also about forming all of our myriad ASSOCIATIONS.
    That finding showed that EACH neuron can be a part of many, many
    different higher-dimensional structures. Think of all the different associations you can connect from a single object or "theme" in your
    memories. Something like this just HAS to be the way it is done.

    For fifty years they thought it was a mono hippocampus to mono cortexes
    process.
    Some where in the new understanding of memory shall come more efficient cures for PTSD, definetely is an out of phase, out of tune process occurring when
    multiple max level stressors occur without time for stereo memory formation,
    with full Icon-Program-Content-Scan ready

    []

    Laura Donnelly, Health Editor
    7 April 2017 • 4:00pm
    Scientists have discovered the secret of how memories are made - the brain
    makes two copies of every
    event, in a discovery they described as “beautiful”. Researchers said
    even they were surprised when
    they realized the secret of how recollections are created and stored. They
    found that the brain “doubles
    up" by simultaneously making two memories of events.
    One is for the present and the second is for the long-term, they found.
    It had been thought that all memories start as a short-term memory and are
    then slowly converted into
    a lifetime version.

    Yes, and yet not everything becomes part of long-term. That's one of
    the things that happens in sleep; the brain decides what was important
    enough to keep, and what wasn't very important and can be discarded.
    Part of that has not only to do with the factual content of memory
    but also with the emotional component. After consolidating and storing
    anything significant, it "clears the slate" for more experience,
    and we feel rested. And that's just one thing that is happening.


    Experts said the findings from MIT in the US and a team from Japan were
    “beautiful
    and convincing”. Two parts of the brain are involved in collecting and
    storing personal experiences.
    The hippocampus collects short-term memories while the cortex retains
    long-term memories.

    Even the *unimportant* events may be needed in short-term operations.
    So we need all of those right away, always. Ex: while you're taking off
    the lid and putting in cream and drinking your coffee and throwing away
    the cup, you need all those days, but hours or days later almost all
    of that info is most likely totally useless and unnecessary.


    That discovery was made in the 1950s after the case of man whose hippocampus
    was damaged as a
    result of epilepsy surgery.
    Henry Molaison
    Henry Molaison changed scientists' understanding of how memories work Henry
    Molaison was no
    longer able to make new memories - ones from before the operation remained
    intact. Scientists decided
    then that memories must be formed in the hippocampus and then moved to the
    cortex where they are
    "banked". The new experiments, by the Riken-MIT Center for Neural Circuit
    Genetics, carried out on
    mice, have established a very different theory. They involved watching the
    way memories were formed
    as brain cells responded to a shock. Light was then beamed into the brain to
    control the activity of
    individual neurons, switching memories on and off.
    The results, published in the journal Science, found that in fact, memories
    were formed simultaneously
    in the hippocampus and the cortex. Researchers said the cortex’s long-term
    memory did not seem to be
    used in the first few days after memories were formed, when it was
    “immature or silent”.

    Not yet fully 'consolidated' and integrated. It probably takes time to
    build all the myriad "association structures" in higher dimensions.

    Some of my favorite quotes from the articles you linked:

    Some of my favorite quotes:

    "neurons in the brain form into “a multi-dimensional sandcastle that materialises out of the sand and then disintegrates” "

    My speculation:
    [Yes, and because they 'disintegrate', if needed repeatedly,
    memories then can even be (must be) rebuilt over and over each time...
    It is not like a "recording" exactly, it is an actual "rebuilding"
    and following all the "trails" that are currently relevant, so that
    each time you recall something, you may focus on different details.]


    "the brain constantly forms temporary structures that exist in multiple dimensions."

    My speculation:
    [They are 'temporary' because you need different details of your
    long-term memories at different times for different reasons.]

    "the presence of high-dimensional topological structures is a general phenomenon across nervous systems"

    [In virtually all animals too, not just humans. That is a cool finding.
    I have another theory: perhaps the truly distinctive characteristic
    of "higher animals" (multi-cellular life with a nervous system) is that
    they are capable of building these higher-dimensional neural networks.]

    "neurons can “flexibly join multiple ensembles” "

    [That is a vitally important functional detail since it multiplies
    the number of possible connections exponentially. And it is also WHY
    in the past we never gained much understanding just from the basic
    firing of single neurons. We must look at how they fire in NETWORKS,
    or "multiple ensembles" as they put it.]

    "a stimulus may be processed by binding neurons into cliques of increasingly higher dimension, as a specific class of cell assemblies, possibly to represent
    features of the stimulus... and by binding these cliques into cavities of increasing complexity,
    possibly to represent the associations between the features..."

    [Yes, to represent the associations between features! Providing insight
    into how memories are RELATED in the brain (not just how they are formed
    and stored). At least, I think this is by far the best hypothesis yet.]


    When scientists turned off the short-term memory, the shock event was
    forgotten. Yet the mice could
    be made to remember by manually switching the long-term memory on.
    Prof Susumu Tonegawa, the director of the research centre, said: “This is
    contrary to the popular
    hypothesis that has been held for decades.
    "This is a significant advance compared to previous knowledge, it's a big
    shift."
    He said the discovery was “surprising”.

    The study also found the long-term memory never matured if the connection
    between the hippocampus
    and the cortex was blocked - suggesting that over time, the balance of power
    shifts to the cortex.

    All the really important stuff needs to be stored in long-term.


    Scientists find secret of reversing bad memories How to wipe a bad memory
    Dr Amy Milton, who researches memory at Cambridge University, said the study
    was "beautiful, elegant
    and extremely impressive". She told the BBC News website: "I'm quite
    surprised. "The idea you need the
    cortex for memories I'm comfortable with, but the fact it's so early is a
    surprise. "This is one study, but I
    think they've got a strong case, I think it's convincing and I think this
    will tell us about how memories are
    stored in humans as well,” she said.
    Scientists said the finding could also help to uncover how diseases such as
    dementia work. One of Prof
    Susumu Tonegawa’s previous studies showed mice with Alzheimer's were still
    forming memories but
    were not able to retrieve them. "Understanding how this happens may be
    relevant in brain disease
    patients," he said.

    Eventually, we're going to gain a greater understanding of how
    our own brains function. That should then form the basis of a
    genuinely scientific psychology, which we've never really had yet.
    We're getting closer.

    .

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)