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Afterward, Mr. Obama called a few aides to the Oval Office to
ruminate on the encounter. “I’m trying to place him in American
history,” he said.

“He peddles” bull, Mr. Rhodes answered. “That character has always
been part of the American story. You can see it right back to some
of the characters in Huckleberry Finn.”

“Maybe,” Mr. Obama answered, “that’s the best we can hope for.”

***

No, it isn't, sir. It most assuredly is not.

the only 'real' problem, is that we're reduced to using 'words' (i.e.
conceptualised ideas) to communicate with, so we have to know before we
even start that ya can't take anything too literally! (this being the
basis of my thing that all words are lies etc...) and because take
things
literally and ya ends up in wallyworld every time!

Wow. Now you descend to the ultimate deception. Just as Trump does.
See, it doesn't matter WHAT one says or believes or professes if
"all words are lies".

### - am not hitler either so stop attempting to 'demonise' me with trump hehehe...

I didn't say you were Hitler. You're similar in some ways to Trump.
Mainly in your shocking disrespect for truth and integrity.

and... IF it's correct that all words ARE lies, then it really *doesn't* matter what we say/believe! and would prolly be better if we didn't say anything at all! such is the conundrum involved!

we can, however, speak while bearing all that in-mind, and as a result not get too tied-down to definitions etc...

I suppose that explains why you seem perfectly fine with
utterly wasting your own time and everyone else's, endlessly.

It's impossible to even have an intelligible
conversation with someone who descends to that level of deception.
It's what I'd call the ultimate denial of responsibility.

"Hey, it doesn't matter WHAT I say, because it's all lies anyway."

### - if you 'really' knew/understood that perhaps you wouldn't take yourself quite so seriously?

Your claim is itself one of the worst lies ever concocted.
And therefore, fairly serious shit indeed.

It's not myself I take seriously, it's the quest for the truth.
And you're a shameless time wasting bullshitter.

you'd allow a little 'lea-way' in your calculations for error? plus you'd dabble in ideas with maybe a little more detachment so as not to get stuck in any one of them in particular instead of needing/having everything nailed down?

There always lee-way for error in my world-view.
Far more so than in yours.

In that world, Carlos Castaneda is still a great hero. After all,
he told his endless lies very artistically, yes?

### - who can possibly deny, that IF he REALLY 'made up' ALL that shit, that he wasn't a brilliant + incredibly inventive/creative writer? (convinced you for 10 years didn't he??) :)

You can't even get that right although I've written volumes on it.
He didn't "make it all up"; he lifted most of it from other sources
and then cobbled it all together into fantastic tales. And, of course,
I never said he wasn't brilliant and creative.

More appropriate to our discussion:
He created an entire system of *beliefs* riddled with lies that
ensnared tens of thousands of people. Yet another person who did that.

Truly, I've never even heard Trump go quite that far although he
certainly behaves as if he might. Indeed, saying "all words are lies"
might be the most despicable smokescreen ever employed. With such a
belief, there is no longer even the possibility of real integrity.

### - yeah imagine that... just forgetting all that shite and letting it all go??

what a relief! :D (that's wot vinny says anyways heh...)

plus don't forgets to flush! lol :)

Vini doesn't say "all words are lies". He's neither stupid
nor deceptive.

Are you THAT afraid of not being right that you'll destroy the very
idea of even TRYING to express truth or describe evidence correctly
as to insist it's impossible to describe *anything* accurately, ever?

### - i think my 'point' all along has been that Truth per se cannot BE described accurately! that 'any' description necessarily distorts the original thereof due to the nature of the limiting terms used to define it... that the 'life' aspect of it all pertains more to the world of Art than to rational science! that to 'explain' pears in 'apple-terms' is thus impossible! ya have to keep 'em separate! ;)

That's just another strange unsupported *belief*, Mr. "No beliefs".
Jesus, what a hypocrite you are.

I'd agree that YOU seldom describe the truth of anything accurately. :)

If you really believe that, then you don't even believe in the
efficacy of evidence and you shouldn't ever write here again.

### - hahaha don't think i haven't thought of it lol, after all, buddha's 'silence' apparently said volumes more than all those clever speeches at the mela heh ;)

Buddhism is yet another distorted set of unsupported belief systems,
Mr. "imagine no beliefs".

Why do it? Do you think we all want to argue with endless lies?
How is there any 'sincerity' at all if anything said is 'lying'?
Recall that 'lying' isn't merely being wrong, it's intentionally
misleading and misinforming people.

### - people aren't deliberately 'lying' when they state that the week starts on a monday and ends on a sunday? that there's only 7 days to a week? that's genuinely what they think is really occurring! the Egyptians otoh, asserted a 10-day week?? so who's right and who's wrong or is the whole fucking thing just arbitrary anyway?!

There's no 'right' or 'wrong' there. It was about *belief*. :)
A 7-day week first shows up in recorded history in Babylon.
Babylonians believed the number 7 had mystical significance,
associated with the 7 known heavenly bodies; Sun, Moon, Mars,
Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn. A 7-day week then spread,
adopted even in Japan and China. In Judaism, the creation story
occurred over 7 days as well. The lasting impact of having 7-day
week came via its eventual adoption by the Romans.

And Thursday's child has far to go.
But in the 1887 version, Thursday's child works hard for a living. :)

iow: peeps are born into that reality! thus they don't realise that their words are clothing the underlying reality with an inherited/invented reality of their own! they're not even aware that they're doing it! it's all they've ever known!

and so now here's the problem: how to fuckin' tell 'em!

What a terrible example. I think most people realize it's arbitrary,
based on ancient beliefs, even if they don't know the details.
It would be horrendously expensive to try to alter the custom now.

how to tell 'em that; beyond everything they 'think' they know to be real
& final, vast though it all appears to be, is in fact, another world! a much bigger world! one that literally dwarfs their own!

well, chances are they'd just nail ya to the nearest tree and have done with ya innit lol! (such quaint little customs they have on this planet hehehe...)

Gee, what a load of bullshit *beliefs*, Mr. "No belief". :)

If all words are lies, then ignorance is strength, freedom is
slavery, and war is peace. And only art matters. LOL.
Wow, talk about lost.

### - (slider singing...) 'i once was lost but now am found' hehehe :)))

Um, not yet. :)

so ok, at some point chris gots around to considering 'imagine no
believing' + what would life be like under such circumstances... well
isn't vinny actually doing something very similar right now, and writing >> out what he considers might just be key ideas that could possibly also
liberate others in the way he now feels liberated? isn't he just also
saying/suggesting that it's entirely feasible to just drop all that crap >> and be/live more in the now (belive versus believe? smile...)

Yes, and Vini was serious enough about this topic to write an entire
book about it. And I have read that entire book, not only read it,
but assisted him in editing it and clarifying some of it, and I have
a plethora of ideas of my own on this subject, some of which frankly
go beyond anything Vini ever says. I was only beginning to explore
a few of those ideas, when you insisted on having yet another
argument filled with lies, which I'll have to assume is one of
the few things you're genuinely interested in doing.

### - no jeremy, we were horsing around with some of vinny's ideas, and
you wanna shit all over it and stomp it under 'coz YOU'VE gots... BETTER ideas!?

I wanted to explore some of the related ideas more deeply.
Don't worry, as usual, you've 'cured' me of that desire. :)

so write your OWN book then why don'tcha! plus that way ya wont keep getting interrupted hah

True enough. As I've told you before, I still may.

and if the fucking indians were talking 'bout all that too 10,000 years
ago in that fancy fuckin' language of their, then so what? virtually
'every' culture worldwide has some reference to this/aspects of this,
and
as such we have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the
bathwater
when it comes to examining shit!

If any of their ideas are supportable with evidence, encompassing theory and cogent argument, or if any of them are valuable purely as an
artistic expression, I'd be the last person to throw it out. But if all
of his book is merely lies as you claim, why not throw it all out?

### - actually + now ya mention it; it's an option! - to throw
'everything' out i mean!

and is precisely what rimbaud did at only age 18 or 17 wow :)

Art was no longer enough! was only a stopover to greater things! to becoming a seer!

and apparently he took that step! (again wow)

So, here's yet another *belief* of yours that "Rimbaud was a seer"?
Got any evidence? Wow, no? :)

Is the only possible value of ANY book supposedly just aesthetic?
Then call it the book "art" and don't present its content as fact.
It is presented as religious belief - as "ultimate incontestable truth".

It is presented as "advice for living", not just as "art".
You even offered it as advice. You touted "be here now" to me
(yet turned around hypocritically to attack my PAST beliefs,
when the very reason I'm so knowledgeable regarding 'belief' is
those past struggles).

And btw, it doesn't matter whether musical information is being
consciously recalled or unconsciously engrained, that process -
which may be different for every musician - is still a part of
the past that must be accessed every time the song is played,
and while playing you're also constantly considering what you're
about to play NEXT. You are not simply only "totally immersed
in the moment". Don't even bother claiming that; I've been playing
music myself since I was 8 years old.

### - you might not be, mentally, but your body IS! or ya wouldn't even be able to play the damn thing heh... :)

Again, there is no way to perform a physical action other than
in the moment. That isn't deep. Physically there is no other
option than to "be here now". That's the only way anyone ever can be, physically. I already said this before. So speaking purely physically,
the "be here now" dictum is just plain silly.

have personally only really ever discovered just the ONE 'Truth' jeremy: >> that humanity has its head stuck up its arse and as a consequence only
ever sees its own shit (heh) - only that doesn't absolutely have to be
(nor remain) the case indefinitely... (nurse: the culo-expander please!
hah...)

So that's your ONE 'truth'. A derogatory over-generalization reducing
every human endeavor and every human to a generic pack of lies?

### - such has every civilisation to date!

they 'believed' (what they thought they believed) at the time!

plus we can look back now and it all seems kinda dumb?

but not OUR one, ohhh no! we's better than them! (riiiiight...)

"It all seems kinda dumb?" All? No, it wasn't and isn't.
That's just the kind of thing you say when feeling grandiose.

That's the ultimate cynicism and the ultimate dismissal of everyone
who ever lived (except yourself of course). Again, it isn't possible
to have a meaningful conversation with someone who professes such
beliefs. First, you say you want "no beliefs" yet here express a
truly diabolical *belief* - one that even arrogantly implies that
somehow you're the only one alive with any real idea of 'truth',
yet to my ears, it's merely unsupported insanity and cynicism.

### - observation from a historians pov, rather than belief jeremy heh...

A weird, cynical opinion isn't an "observation".
Indeed, the statement "all words are lies" is yet another
unsupported *belief* coming from Mr. "No beliefs". :)

plus it's not like you're even offering anything better! except maybe
the
eradication/extermination of Art, Poetry & Literature in the process
merely because YOU don't understand it??

and so now ya also wanna BURN the book 'Be Here Now' as well???

feck off! - it's a lovely book! a most unusual book! a beautiful book! >> :)

is actually a work of Art!

(you're dumping on Art jeremy! that's how 'wrong/off' you are!)

As you so often do, because you refuse to actually listen, now you're trying to twist everything I said into something I never said at all.
Maybe all YOUR words ARE lies? :)

'### - just as much lies are yours are, no more no less, but with one slight difference; i realise/know all words are lies and you don't, thus i don't take myself seriously while you still do ;)

All words aren't lies. And don't worry, I don't think you have
any serious point there. I do think it is seriously pathetic. :)

In fact, I distinguish between works of art and religious beliefs
and indeed any statements intended to be factual. Because to me,
not all words are lies. Some words are very well-supported by
voluminous real-world evidence. And a work of art, of course,
need not be. I'm fine with artists. Always have been.
I occasionally create works of art myself. You're so desperate
you're building yet another straw man to burn.

### -you're the one who's beginning to sound desperate jeremy heh; i'm having fun here! :)

Right. You're just sooo much fun. :)

And I guess top-posting like that was supposed to show disrespect
and disregard for everything I was trying to explore. You have indeed
once again successfully derailed what could have been a genuinely interesting discussion on the nature of belief. You might have
heard some ideas you haven't even fully heard before. Yet truly,
disrespect is the usual content of most of your posts anyway,
especially given that by your own admission, they're totally
filled from start to finish with nothing but lies.

### - yawns... you're beginning to bore me now?

You've done little besides bore me, all along.

How could anyone ever take your posts seriously after that admission?

### - correct! don't ever take 'em seriously, or literally, and ya wont

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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