From: slider@nanashram.com

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness
even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we simply don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall asleep isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you have had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s soft embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let me
sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s insomnia and its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual hallucination experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems
there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state provides access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as if a great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the strangest thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the process he remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is something
I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities don’t negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most innocent creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as the
result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as being
sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone' can do
this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now! :)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness
even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'

I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we simply

don’t

know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall asleep isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract

thought

process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you have had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s soft

embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s insomnia and

its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with ResearchGate this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual hallucination experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best known work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state provides access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as if a

great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the strangest thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the process he remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is something I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities

don’t

negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most innocent creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being useful/instrumental in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as the result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an ability) to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as being sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone' can do this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now! :)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after waking.
But that's just me. :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.org

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness
even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we simply
don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall asleep >> isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract
thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you
have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s
soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to
write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams,
shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let me
sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s insomnia
and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear
description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual hallucination
experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best
known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems
there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state provides
access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as
if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the strangest
thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the process he
remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost
inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is something
I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities don’t
negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as the
result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as being
sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone' can do
this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now! :)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after waking.
But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've tried/achieved so far?

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any 'other' way apart from what you are used to! what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such
activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working days as we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible
heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that that's the
best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a door
that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for sure'
one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have to
made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a potentially
best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open!

and i like that :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:40:43 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into wakefulness
even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we simply

don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall asleep >> isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract >> thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you >> have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s >> soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to
write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams,
shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let me
sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s insomnia >> and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear
description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual hallucination
experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best
known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems
there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state provides >> access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as >> if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the strangest >> thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the process he >> remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost
inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is something
I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities

don’t

negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as the >> result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as being
sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone' can do >> this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now! :)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly 'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after waking.
But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've tried/achieved so far?

Isn't that true for everyone? :)

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any 'other' way apart from what you are used to!

I do, because I know what others say their preferences are.
We just read about what Kafka liked to do, didn't we?
And I know what you tend to prefer, right?

The first thing I said was:
"I think such things actually vary, by individual." :)

what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

You keep saying that. Although I've never once even implied it.
Historically, I've always been open to trying all kinds of stuff.

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working days as we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that that's the best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a door that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for sure' one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have to made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a potentially
best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open!

and i like that :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:28:19 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:40:43 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into

wakefulness

even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we simply >> >> don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall

asleep

isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract >> >> thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you
have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s >> >> soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to
write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams,
shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let

me

sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s

insomnia

and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear
description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual

hallucination

experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best
known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems >> >> there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state

provides

access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as >> >> if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the

strangest

thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the

process he

remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost
inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into

literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is

something

I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities

don’t

negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as

the

result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as

being

sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone'

can do

this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now!

:)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after waking.
But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best
way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've
tried/achieved so far?

Isn't that true for everyone? :)

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any 'other'
way
apart from what you are used to!

I do, because I know what others say their preferences are.
We just read about what Kafka liked to do, didn't we?
And I know what you tend to prefer, right?

The first thing I said was:
"I think such things actually vary, by individual." :)

what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

You keep saying that. Although I've never once even implied it.
Historically, I've always been open to trying all kinds of stuff.

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such
activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working days
as
we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible
heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that that's
the
best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a
door
that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for
sure'
one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have to
made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a potentially
best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open!

and i like that :)

### - (laughing...) so even though i spelled it out, you 'refuse' to even
see what am saying/suggesting? (you couldn't possible miss it so badly (or
so much) unless it was a deliberate thing on your part hehehe, funny)

point is dear chap, that everything you say is probably quite correct!

the only 'problem' with it (and the part you quite obviously deliberately
keep overlooking heh) is that everything you say/suggest about this is
based entirely on people's completely 'unconscious' approach to sleep and
to sleeping! the various default values and differences between people operating on a completely unconscious level are thus meaningless &
valueless as no one is 'trying' to do anything, they're just letting it
happen and going along with it and then noticing the various unconscious differences existing between them!

bring 'conscious awareness' into the equation, however, and everything
changes! all we lack then is the appropriate information (and experience)
to tell us what's best out of all those options and ways of going about
things! tackling things in an unconscious manner (as we have until now)
has let (and led) us to think/believe all sorts of things that only
actually applies to peeps not really thinking or applying themselves deliberately! we've been letting 'society' dictate our sleeping patterns!

different ball game altogether though when 'being awake' is brought into
the whole thing!

kafka obviously stumbled onto it (or aspects of it) purely by accident!
(same as me!) but didn't consider that what he'd discovered might just
apply to... everyone??

iow: the greedy fucker kept it all to himself lol! thought he was
'special' maybe? (had powers hah) not realising that he'd quite obviously stumbled upon something... universal!

i dunno, maybe he didn't want any competition or something heh, or maybe
wasn't even that intelligent and didn't actually realise it! who knows! :)

only we know different now! virtually 'anyone' can dip into that very same
pool of hidden information and bring back potentially great/novel ideas
just like he did! (i even mentioned it in my book re writers perhaps
finding inspiration, and artists something to paint, didn't i?)

well, he's proof that it's actually true! (why i posted the article!)

and am very pleased with that! ;)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:38:27 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:28:19 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:40:43 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into

wakefulness

even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we

simply

don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall >> asleep
isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an

abstract

thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition you >> >> have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that sleep’s >> >> soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to
write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams,
shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not let >> me
sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s

insomnia

and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a clear >> >> description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual

hallucination

experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's best
known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It seems >> >> there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state

provides

access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante explained. >> >>
“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be said as >> >> if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the

strangest

thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the

process he

remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth almost
inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into

literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is

something

I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities

don’t

negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or as >> the
result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as

being

sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone'

can do

this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until now! >> :)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after waking.
But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best
way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've
tried/achieved so far?

Isn't that true for everyone? :)

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any 'other' >> way
apart from what you are used to!

I do, because I know what others say their preferences are.
We just read about what Kafka liked to do, didn't we?
And I know what you tend to prefer, right?

The first thing I said was:
"I think such things actually vary, by individual." :)

what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

You keep saying that. Although I've never once even implied it. Historically, I've always been open to trying all kinds of stuff.

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such
activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working days >> as
we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible
heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that that's >> the
best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a
door
that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for
sure'
one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have to
made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a potentially
best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open!

and i like that :)

### - (laughing...) so even though i spelled it out, you 'refuse' to even see what am saying/suggesting? (you couldn't possible miss it so badly (or so much) unless it was a deliberate thing on your part hehehe, funny)

point is dear chap, that everything you say is probably quite correct!

the only 'problem' with it (and the part you quite obviously deliberately keep overlooking heh) is that everything you say/suggest about this is based entirely on people's completely 'unconscious' approach to sleep and to sleeping! the various default values and differences between people operating on a completely unconscious level are thus meaningless & valueless as no one is 'trying' to do anything, they're just letting it happen and going along with it and then noticing the various unconscious differences existing between them!

I saw what you were saying the first time you ever said it.
We just have a difference of opinion. I think it's fine for human
lives to involve a significant amount of unconscious processing.
I believe that's not only "fine", but natural and beneficial.

My God isn't "self awareness" or "being awake". I accept and
appreciate all the aspects of life, including its unconscious
and semi-conscious states. Heck, full waking awareness too,
but not to the exclusion of every other state. :)

bring 'conscious awareness' into the equation, however, and everything changes! all we lack then is the appropriate information (and experience) to tell us what's best out of all those options and ways of going about things! tackling things in an unconscious manner (as we have until now)
has let (and led) us to think/believe all sorts of things that only actually applies to peeps not really thinking or applying themselves deliberately! we've been letting 'society' dictate our sleeping patterns!

different ball game altogether though when 'being awake' is brought into the whole thing!

Not in my opinion. I've done lucid dreaming hundreds of times.
I even succeeded at WILD a handful of times. In my opinion,
LD really doesn't change that much.

Whether or not society dictates the patterns... sleep is sleep,
and dreams are dreams. That's my opinion. I believe sleep
and ordinary unconscious dreams are beneficial parts of living.

kafka obviously stumbled onto it (or aspects of it) purely by accident! (same as me!) but didn't consider that what he'd discovered might just apply to... everyone??

iow: the greedy fucker kept it all to himself lol! thought he was
'special' maybe? (had powers hah) not realising that he'd quite obviously stumbled upon something... universal!

i dunno, maybe he didn't want any competition or something heh, or maybe wasn't even that intelligent and didn't actually realise it! who knows! :)

only we know different now! virtually 'anyone' can dip into that very same pool of hidden information and bring back potentially great/novel ideas just like he did! (i even mentioned it in my book re writers perhaps finding inspiration, and artists something to paint, didn't i?)

I find plenty of inspiration either with or without LD.
And I fully realize that's just me, but that is what I've found.

well, he's proof that it's actually true! (why i posted the article!)

and am very pleased with that! ;)

Okay, I hear you.

You keep acting like I "refuse to consider it" or "am not willing
to try it", or some such thing. Not true.

I've tried doing WILD at least 50 times over the years.
And only succeeded like... 3 or 4 times. It's just hard for me.
It always works better *for me* to let LD happen "naturally"
while I'm already IN a dream. Then all I have to do is to
"become aware" of a condition that already naturally exists,
instead of having to "make that transition" myself.

Not only is it untrue that I "refuse to try" WILD, a few times
I successfully did it. But most of the time when I try I fail.

It's also important to realize that *for me*, even when I
succeeded at WILD, it didn't seem that different from many of
the DILD experiences I'd had. And I had hundreds of those.

I also have no shortage of artistic inspiration, personally,
whether it comes from waking, lucid dreaming, ordinary
dreaming or some combination of those states and others.

I've said all this many times before, just as you've said your
piece many times before. You don't seem willing to accept that
different people have different preferences.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/20840696_1145035835639770_7281025862339243556_n.jpg?oh=5621b7ed9f8df16c9f70cc2f8f692c73&oe=59EC5185

:)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 17:55:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:38:27 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:28:19 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:40:43 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into

wakefulness

even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we

simply

don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall

asleep

isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an abstract
thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition

you

have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that

sleep’s

soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to
write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams,
shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not

let

me

sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s

insomnia

and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a

clear

description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual

hallucination

experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's

best

known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It

seems

there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state

provides

access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante

explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be

said as

if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the

strangest

thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the

process he

remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth

almost

inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into

literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is

something

I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative opportunities >> >> don’t
negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or

as

the

result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as

being

sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone'

can do

this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until

now!

:)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future

heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after

waking.

But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best
way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've
tried/achieved so far?

Isn't that true for everyone? :)

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any

'other'

way
apart from what you are used to!

I do, because I know what others say their preferences are.
We just read about what Kafka liked to do, didn't we?
And I know what you tend to prefer, right?

The first thing I said was:
"I think such things actually vary, by individual." :)

what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

You keep saying that. Although I've never once even implied it.
Historically, I've always been open to trying all kinds of stuff.

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such
activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working

days

as
we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible
heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that

that's

the
best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a
door
that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for
sure'
one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have

to

made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a

potentially

best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open!

and i like that :)

### - (laughing...) so even though i spelled it out, you 'refuse' to
even
see what am saying/suggesting? (you couldn't possible miss it so badly
(or
so much) unless it was a deliberate thing on your part hehehe, funny)

point is dear chap, that everything you say is probably quite correct!

the only 'problem' with it (and the part you quite obviously
deliberately
keep overlooking heh) is that everything you say/suggest about this is
based entirely on people's completely 'unconscious' approach to sleep
and
to sleeping! the various default values and differences between people
operating on a completely unconscious level are thus meaningless &
valueless as no one is 'trying' to do anything, they're just letting it
happen and going along with it and then noticing the various unconscious
differences existing between them!

I saw what you were saying the first time you ever said it.
We just have a difference of opinion. I think it's fine for human
lives to involve a significant amount of unconscious processing.
I believe that's not only "fine", but natural and beneficial.

My God isn't "self awareness" or "being awake". I accept and
appreciate all the aspects of life, including its unconscious
and semi-conscious states. Heck, full waking awareness too,
but not to the exclusion of every other state. :)

bring 'conscious awareness' into the equation, however, and everything
changes! all we lack then is the appropriate information (and
experience)
to tell us what's best out of all those options and ways of going about
things! tackling things in an unconscious manner (as we have until now)
has let (and led) us to think/believe all sorts of things that only
actually applies to peeps not really thinking or applying themselves
deliberately! we've been letting 'society' dictate our sleeping
patterns!

different ball game altogether though when 'being awake' is brought into
the whole thing!

Not in my opinion. I've done lucid dreaming hundreds of times.
I even succeeded at WILD a handful of times. In my opinion,
LD really doesn't change that much.

### - have given a dozen solid examples of it definitely having made a difference to quite a few reputable people, even thang (who isn't at ALL reputable! hah! + j/k:) asserted same from his own personal experience!
the latest (kafka) making him famous in the literary world based almost entirely upon it! i.e., the 'proof' is there that it CAN (and does) make a difference! the majority of which to date were, to boot, apparently based
only on completely 'accidental/unwitting' events - how much more so then if/when more 'conscious deliberation' (as with WILDS) is brought into the equation remains untested! whereas 'your opinion' (above) is admittedly
based on an express personal 'lack' of experience in the matter of being deliberate about it, and as such only really/actually expresses/reveals
your personal 'dislike' of the whole idea altogether! :)

that although you may indeed have had 100's of dilds in the past, they
were all apparently based almost entirely on looking for something that apparently doesn't actually exist?? (cc's method to induce dilds being successful enough; it was only his affirmed goal - of meeting IB's and
crossing gates etc using it - that failed!) your resulting disappointment, and/or disillusionment then in that direction, eventually making you throw
your hands up in the air to declare it's ALL useless when that didn't
work, only THAT isn't 'evidence' of it being useless altogether! (e.g.,
having long had interest in medical matters and/or that of anatomy, i've
even had a potential cancer cause/cure from dreaming! am just not in the position to test it! but have put it out there in the hope 'someone' will
look into it as that's all i can do! if true would that be unimportant
too?)

Whether or not society dictates the patterns... sleep is sleep,
and dreams are dreams. That's my opinion. I believe sleep
and ordinary unconscious dreams are beneficial parts of living.

### - human beings are nothing if not very 'adaptable', and the point in
that other article re our ancestors probably sleeping a completely
different way rings true! that chances are ancient man napped by default
if only to survive! something which possibly even explains (at least potentially) our great love of and for some kinda strange 'spirit' world
and trance-like state due to an increased contact (then) with dreams and dreaming coupled with elements of volition in them (probably WILDing) and
that of then going into it for specific purposes such as
diagnosing/sussing things out (illnesses and the like) - otoh, cram people
into huge cities effectively cutting them off from nature almost
altogether, regularly work them like mules until they fall into a sleep of utter exhaustion for long periods, and ya eventually get modern sleeping patterns instead, perforce which are beneficial merely by dint of the way
we've chosen to live!

kafka obviously stumbled onto it (or aspects of it) purely by accident!
(same as me!) but didn't consider that what he'd discovered might just
apply to... everyone??

iow: the greedy fucker kept it all to himself lol! thought he was
'special' maybe? (had powers hah) not realising that he'd quite
obviously
stumbled upon something... universal!

i dunno, maybe he didn't want any competition or something heh, or maybe
wasn't even that intelligent and didn't actually realise it! who knows!
:)

only we know different now! virtually 'anyone' can dip into that very
same
pool of hidden information and bring back potentially great/novel ideas
just like he did! (i even mentioned it in my book re writers perhaps
finding inspiration, and artists something to paint, didn't i?)

I find plenty of inspiration either with or without LD.
And I fully realize that's just me, but that is what I've found.

### - you haven't found anything (via dreaming) because you haven't
looked? kafka found things 'because' he looked! so ok he was going into dreaming 'with' an agenda (looking for specific things; novel ideas to
write about etc...) but did easily find shit to write about that actually
made him quite famous! dreaming was the ultimate source of his... genius! (maybe even einstein's too apparently heh) :)

well, he's proof that it's actually true! (why i posted the article!)

and am very pleased with that! ;)

Okay, I hear you.

You keep acting like I "refuse to consider it" or "am not willing
to try it", or some such thing. Not true.

I've tried doing WILD at least 50 times over the years.
And only succeeded like... 3 or 4 times. It's just hard for me.
It always works better *for me* to let LD happen "naturally"
while I'm already IN a dream. Then all I have to do is to
"become aware" of a condition that already naturally exists,
instead of having to "make that transition" myself.

### - personally, am 'amazed' that we can actually even learn to dild??
put our mind to shit and we can achieve nearly even the impossible! -
however, 'waiting' for an opportunity (to lucidly dream) is vastly
different to 'creating' that opportunity... just like waiting for gold to
fall into your lap is very different to going out and digging some up: -
you 'could' wait forever! :)

i've challenged you to 'try' it, but you always come-off (when pressed)
with some crap about how you can't be bothered anymore anyway? something
which doesn't exactly: 'validate your opinion'

i've provided evidence (quite a bit actually!) whereas you've provided
only your own personal... 'opinion', one apparently based on not being
bothered about it anymore because YOU don't think it's up to much anyway??

that's not even logical jeremy! plus it certainly doesn't include the
objective scientific method you so causally otherwise espouse? the
evidence IS currently against you! how then is your 'opinion' more
valuable than the evidence??


[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 02:17:21 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

I haven't exactly disparaged your obsession with the wonderfulness
of WILD. If that's what you want to spend your life doing, it's
perfectly all right with me. I understand. I just do not wish to
join you. :)

### - no one's twisting your arm to 'do' anything, nevertheless, without
being asked you keep coming up with lame reasons why it's nothing of any
import regardless of any evidence to the contrary, and when pressed to
explain your position you can only then refer to experiences you only
'might' have had a long time ago which are very vague and generalised...

your effort seemingly being more to do with being intent on 'explaining it
all away' as opposed to ever actually examining anything, again for
somewhat rather vague reasons you can't actually define nor directly refer
to from personal experience other than that's what you 'want' to think,
and that's that...

no one's asking you to 'join' anything, you 'say' you're NOT interested
but KEEP interjecting in the negative whenever the subject comes up for
reasons you can't ever really define!

if you're really NOT interested then keep out of it!

you don't, however, appear to be able to do so?

i mean, if you're gonna 'debunk' something, then you've gotta come up with something better than: 'you just don't personally think so'??

which, upon examination, is all you seem to have :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 12:56:56 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 17:55:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 5:38:27 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 00:28:19 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 12:40:43 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 20:21:35 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Sunday, August 13, 2017 at 8:33:24 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

'..again it was the power of my dreams, shining forth into

wakefulness

even before I fall asleep, which did not let me sleep.'


I don’t know if it’s because we’re embarrassed or because we >> simply
don’t
know how to explain it, but the feeling that you’re about to fall >> >> asleep
isn’t so much marked by a sense of ‘drifting’ as it is an

abstract

thought
process.

Lying there, you’ll suddenly become aware of a bizarre cognition >> you
have
had, a sort-of pre-sleep dream.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/news/how-franz-kafka-was-inspired-by-those-thoughtsdreams-you-get-just-before-you-fall-asleep-a7402721.html

For many of us, it will come as a comfort, a reassurance that

sleep’s

soft
embrace is imminent, but for Franz Kafka, it was an inspiration to >> >> >> write.

In his diaries, he wrote: "...again it was the power of my dreams, >> >> >> shining
forth into wakefulness even before I fall asleep, which did not

let

me

sleep."

Italian doctor Antonio Perciaccante has been studying Kafka’s

insomnia

and
its effect on his work, and shared some of his findings with
ResearchGate
this week.

Of that passage in question, he concludes: “This seems to be a >> clear
description of a hypnagogic hallucination, a vivid visual

hallucination

experienced just before the sleep onset.”

Sleep and lack thereof is of course a central theme in Kafka's

best

known
work, Metamorphosis, and plays on protagonist Gregor’s mind. It >> seems
there was a strong dose of autobiography at play.

“Kafka himself affirmed that writing in a sleep-deprived state

provides

access to otherwise inaccessible thoughts,” Perciaccante

explained.

“He said of the experience, '... how easily everything can be

said as

if a
great fire had been prepared for all these things in which the

strangest

thoughts emerge and again disappear.' Of his own role in the

process he

remarked, 'all I possess are certain powers which, at a depth

almost

inaccessible at normal conditions, shape themselves into

literature.'"

Feeling somehow more creatively inspired and likely to think more
kinetically in the middle of the night than in the morning is

something

I’m sure many can relate to, but insomnia’s creative

opportunities

don’t

negate its mental toll. Kafka once referred to sleep as "the most
innocent
creature there is and sleepless man the most guilty."

### - so many instances of WILDing 'unwittingly' being
useful/instrumental
in oh so many ways! all of course usually by pure accident and/or >> as

the

result of peeps thinking it's something only ever relevant (as an
ability)
to them personally and nothing more and usually explained away as

being

sheer random events!

when the absolute truth of the matter is that just about 'anyone'

can do

this, it's just that we've never realised that we can... until

now!

:)

screw dilds (a second rate version...) - *WILDs* are the future

heh!

I think such things actually vary, by individual. For me:

The best time to arrive at great ideas is in the first 10 minutes
right after waking up in the morning. It almost feels like there's
a 'mental and emotional residue' left over from all the nightly
'processing' of altered brain states (dreams, lucid or not,
thought consolidation, etc.). Often the ideas carry over from
something in one of the last few dreams (again, lucid or not),
or sometimes they seem to just pop up into my head out of nowhere,
within the first 10 minutes of waking.

My mind is often fresh and at its most inventive right after

waking.

But that's just me. :)

### - well you say/claim that, and maybe, for you, that IS the best
way...

only what you claim to be best is based entirely on only what you've
tried/achieved so far?

Isn't that true for everyone? :)

you thus have no idea what it may be like (or better/best) any

'other'

way
apart from what you are used to!

I do, because I know what others say their preferences are.
We just read about what Kafka liked to do, didn't we?
And I know what you tend to prefer, right?

The first thing I said was:
"I think such things actually vary, by individual." :)

what's more you're not prepared to even
try anything else!

You keep saying that. Although I've never once even implied it.
Historically, I've always been open to trying all kinds of stuff.

fact is, it may indeed be entirely 'possible' to 'limit' all such
activities so as to preserve current sleeping patterns and working

days

as
we're currently all used to having/applying them (anything's possible >> >> heh...) but who's to say without extensive experimentation that

that's

the
best way to deal with/handle it all?

we don't know! all we 'know' for sure is that the door is opening! a
door
that creates a whole host of new possibilities! currently unexplored
and/or mapped!

obviously it's gonna take time to unravel it all! until we know 'for
sure'
one way or another what's best and what's not! compromises may have >> to
made! adjustments! all i've proposed in an extreme case, a

potentially

best case scenario! the 'maximum effect' so to speak?

this is all new stuff and who knows where it might go/end up :)

certainly not me and certainly not you! it's currently all wide open! >> >>
and i like that :)

### - (laughing...) so even though i spelled it out, you 'refuse' to
even
see what am saying/suggesting? (you couldn't possible miss it so badly >> (or
so much) unless it was a deliberate thing on your part hehehe, funny)

point is dear chap, that everything you say is probably quite correct!

the only 'problem' with it (and the part you quite obviously
deliberately
keep overlooking heh) is that everything you say/suggest about this is
based entirely on people's completely 'unconscious' approach to sleep >> and
to sleeping! the various default values and differences between people
operating on a completely unconscious level are thus meaningless &
valueless as no one is 'trying' to do anything, they're just letting it
happen and going along with it and then noticing the various unconscious >> differences existing between them!

I saw what you were saying the first time you ever said it.
We just have a difference of opinion. I think it's fine for human
lives to involve a significant amount of unconscious processing.
I believe that's not only "fine", but natural and beneficial.

My God isn't "self awareness" or "being awake". I accept and
appreciate all the aspects of life, including its unconscious
and semi-conscious states. Heck, full waking awareness too,
but not to the exclusion of every other state. :)

bring 'conscious awareness' into the equation, however, and everything
changes! all we lack then is the appropriate information (and
experience)
to tell us what's best out of all those options and ways of going about
things! tackling things in an unconscious manner (as we have until now)
has let (and led) us to think/believe all sorts of things that only
actually applies to peeps not really thinking or applying themselves
deliberately! we've been letting 'society' dictate our sleeping
patterns!

different ball game altogether though when 'being awake' is brought into >> the whole thing!

Not in my opinion. I've done lucid dreaming hundreds of times.
I even succeeded at WILD a handful of times. In my opinion,
LD really doesn't change that much.

### - have given a dozen solid examples of it definitely having made a difference to quite a few reputable people, even thang (who isn't at ALL reputable! hah! + j/k:) asserted same from his own personal experience!
the latest (kafka) making him famous in the literary world based almost entirely upon it! i.e., the 'proof' is there that it CAN (and does) make a difference! the majority of which to date were, to boot, apparently based only on completely 'accidental/unwitting' events - how much more so then if/when more 'conscious deliberation' (as with WILDS) is brought into the equation remains untested! whereas 'your opinion' (above) is admittedly based on an express personal 'lack' of experience in the matter of being deliberate about it, and as such only really/actually expresses/reveals your personal 'dislike' of the whole idea altogether! :)

You always put up a straw man of my views then knock it down.

I didn't mean LD "makes no difference at all", or that I "dislike" it.
I said it "doesn't change that much", just meaning that in my
experience it doesn't fundamentally alter the basic qualities or
nature of human life to any great extent. I will clarify, since I
was a bit vague: sure, dreaming can contribute to quality of life.
As many things do. And yet, I also have to keep saying...
ordinary dreaming has contributed every bit as much as LD.

McCartney wasn't lucid dreaming when he wrote Yesterday.
He had a vivid dream about it and woke up with the tune still
in his head. Then he still had to write the words in waking.

(I do that same thing fairly often, actually.)

Thang didn't say he does lucid dreaming either.
He also got his ideas from ordinary vivid dreams.

Kafka was focused on hypnagogic hallucinations, not WILD.
Heck, if I wanted to, I could do that almost any time.
(I see hypnagogia quite easily. I just can't transition
into full-blown dreaming very easily that way.)

Here's an interesting thing too: my partner Vicki doesn't use
hypnagogia to WILD. After relaxing deeply, she just "imagines a
scene" the way she wants it, and then "walks into" it.
If she is interrupted, she can come out of it, and then
go back into the same "place" again.

She usually isn't even aware of her own hypnagogia when
going to sleep. Her's is yet another way.

I told her I consider her ability somewhat amazing.
She finds it impossible to LD while asleep, and considers
my ability to do that somewhat amazing.

that although you may indeed have had 100's of dilds in the past, they
were all apparently based almost entirely on looking for something that apparently doesn't actually exist?? (cc's method to induce dilds being successful enough; it was only his affirmed goal - of meeting IB's and crossing gates etc using it - that failed!) your resulting disappointment, and/or disillusionment then in that direction, eventually making you throw your hands up in the air to declare it's ALL useless when that didn't
work, only THAT isn't 'evidence' of it being useless altogether! (e.g., having long had interest in medical matters and/or that of anatomy, i've even had a potential cancer cause/cure from dreaming! am just not in the position to test it! but have put it out there in the hope 'someone' will look into it as that's all i can do! if true would that be unimportant too?)

You're grasping at another straw.

I did lots of lucid dreaming even after giving up the CC thing.
Not as much as I did while a passionate believer, but I bet I've
done LD at least 100 times since we started debunking CC.
That sounds like a lot but is only a half-dozen times a year or so.

But it's not a trivial amount of experience.
Not very many people even do it that much.
And that was just the tail-end of my experiences.

Actually, the "lucid state" itself was the same, whether
the dream scene content had anything to do with CC or not.

It's also kinda wrong to say I was "looking for something" in LD,
even when I was doing Castaneda's exercises. I was usually rather
precise about what I did, which was almost 'clinical' in nature.
My practice was FAR more disciplined that what I usually hear when
most people describe their actual LD experiences. I was focused
on maintaining full, sharp lucidity - and on carefully observing
intricate details of dream scenes, whatever they were - without
ever becoming too involved - and on being sure to maintain complete
lucidity no matter what the dream scenes were or how they changed.
It was almost... scientific. :)

I think that's why DILD and WILD seemed highly similar to me.
Because full waking awareness is full waking awareness.
It doesn't matter how you initiate waking awareness,
as long as you get there, and once there, maintain it.

Does that really not make sense to you? It's as simple as can be.


[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 21:26:51 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 02:17:21 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

I haven't exactly disparaged your obsession with the wonderfulness
of WILD. If that's what you want to spend your life doing, it's
perfectly all right with me. I understand. I just do not wish to
join you. :)

no one's asking you to 'join' anything, you 'say' you're NOT interested
but KEEP interjecting in the negative whenever the subject comes up for
reasons you can't ever really define!

if you're really NOT interested then keep out of it!

you don't, however, appear to be able to do so?

i mean, if you're gonna 'debunk' something, then you've gotta come up
with
something better than: 'you just don't personally think so'??

which, upon examination, is all you seem to have :)

I didn't say I "wasn't interested". Obviously, to some extent I am.
You don't seem to ever hear a single thing I actually say, however
much detail I go into. That's because you're biased, and personally
invested. Which isn't terrible, but... it's not objective either.
There *is* evidence for most of the things I've been saying.
And you have no more 'evidence' than I do for your own views.
In some cases, less.

### - you have YET to present ANY so far??

i keep asking for some and all i get is your... 'opinion'?

i've given LOTS of examples! all coming from 'their' personal experience!

and from a variety of reputable-enough people!

*you've* offered ONLY your OWN personal... doubts??

'beliefs & assertions' are NOT 'evidence' jeremy!

'especially' yours! hah! :)))

in fact, considering your track record to date; i'd have actually been
worried if you'd been more 'on-board' with all this!?! (cracking up...)

you going in the 'opposite' direction genuinely gives me hope!

in fact i depend on it! :D hahaha...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 02:17:21 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

I haven't exactly disparaged your obsession with the wonderfulness
of WILD. If that's what you want to spend your life doing, it's
perfectly all right with me. I understand. I just do not wish to
join you. :)

### - no one's twisting your arm to 'do' anything, nevertheless, without being asked you keep coming up with lame reasons why it's nothing of any import regardless of any evidence to the contrary, and when pressed to explain your position you can only then refer to experiences you only
'might' have had a long time ago which are very vague and generalised...

your effort seemingly being more to do with being intent on 'explaining it all away' as opposed to ever actually examining anything, again for
somewhat rather vague reasons you can't actually define nor directly refer
to from personal experience other than that's what you 'want' to think,
and that's that...

no one's asking you to 'join' anything, you 'say' you're NOT interested
but KEEP interjecting in the negative whenever the subject comes up for reasons you can't ever really define!

if you're really NOT interested then keep out of it!

you don't, however, appear to be able to do so?

i mean, if you're gonna 'debunk' something, then you've gotta come up with something better than: 'you just don't personally think so'??

which, upon examination, is all you seem to have :)

I didn't say I "wasn't interested". Obviously, to some extent I am.
You don't seem to ever hear a single thing I actually say, however
much detail I go into. That's because you're biased, and personally
invested. Which isn't terrible, but... it's not objective either.
There *is* evidence for most of the things I've been saying.
And you have no more 'evidence' than I do for your own views.
In some cases, less.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 01:32:31 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

A perfect demonstration of how a man can rationalize anything,
no matter how crazy. Well done on proving that to everyone. :)

### - LOL and well done on giving everyone a 'DAILY headache' on TRUMP for
the last *EIGHTEEN fucking MONTHS* non-stop! ffs??? (you're a fine one to
throw stones??)

coz' if THAT's not crazy then i dunno what is!?!?

i've consistently argued/debated my points as best and as intelligently i
can (+ humour!)

whereas you've behaved like a total NUT without even being prompted??

i rest my case! :D

you're a hothead! a hotheaded NUT!

you can't be trusted!

hah i wouldn't put you in charge of a goldfish!

lol you'd prolly 'smoke' all it's food and fill up it's bowl up with ice
cubes! :D

:D

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Thursday, August 17, 2017 at 2:06:27 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 21:26:51 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 16, 2017 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-7, slider wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 02:17:21 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:

I haven't exactly disparaged your obsession with the wonderfulness
of WILD. If that's what you want to spend your life doing, it's
perfectly all right with me. I understand. I just do not wish to
join you. :)

no one's asking you to 'join' anything, you 'say' you're NOT interested
but KEEP interjecting in the negative whenever the subject comes up for
reasons you can't ever really define!

if you're really NOT interested then keep out of it!

you don't, however, appear to be able to do so?

i mean, if you're gonna 'debunk' something, then you've gotta come up
with
something better than: 'you just don't personally think so'??

which, upon examination, is all you seem to have :)

I didn't say I "wasn't interested". Obviously, to some extent I am.
You don't seem to ever hear a single thing I actually say, however
much detail I go into. That's because you're biased, and personally invested. Which isn't terrible, but... it's not objective either.
There *is* evidence for most of the things I've been saying.
And you have no more 'evidence' than I do for your own views.
In some cases, less.

### - you have YET to present ANY so far??

i keep asking for some and all i get is your... 'opinion'?

i've given LOTS of examples! all coming from 'their' personal experience!

and from a variety of reputable-enough people!

As I just pointed out, the evidence shows McCartney and Einstein
had ordinary vivid dreams about their ideas, not LDs - and Kafka
was into hypnagogia, not LD. You tried to imply these people's
experiences support the potential value of LD - but they don't. :)

*you've* offered ONLY your OWN personal... doubts??

'beliefs & assertions' are NOT 'evidence' jeremy!

'especially' yours! hah! :)))

I also already said that our personal experiences (upon which our
beliefs and assertions are based) aren't evidence.

in fact, considering your track record to date; i'd have actually been worried if you'd been more 'on-board' with all this!?! (cracking up...)

you going in the 'opposite' direction genuinely gives me hope!

in fact i depend on it! :D hahaha...

Wherever it is you imagine you're 'going', good luck.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:27:11 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

Wherever it is you imagine you're 'going', good luck.

### - imho have already personally gone as far as i think am going and/or
am able to go, but then this isn't about 'me' (or even you hah!) it's
about the world?

chances are 'none' of us are going 'anywhere' in a minute as humanity
hurls itself into a yawning abyss anyway (which would seem to be out unavoidable fate?) all i've tried/attempted to do meantime was to give
them an alternative to extinction, a long-shot no doubt, a case of far too little too late, but still something better than annihilation...

you wanna shoot it all down and vote for ww3 coz *you're* in a bad mood?!?

then that's YOUR problem!

at least i tried... something! :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

Now WWIII is my fault?
Geez, I'm largely anti-war too. :)

There is an alternative to extinction:
take good care of our entire planet.
All of it. All the time.

Hint: don't let people drop bombs on any part of it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@nanashram.com

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:18:50 +0100, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

Now WWIII is my fault?
Geez, I'm largely anti-war too. :)

### - actions speak louder than words!

and your hostile aggressive attitude towards, well, everyone really hah!
(leave me out of it as i've deliberately provoked you; but you've even
savaged chris & vinny on occasion!) totally belies/contradicts such empty words?? 'war' is what you've committed (and been involved in committing)
on here for the last 18 years! plus i've literally lost count of the times
i've been forced to intervene it got so bad!?!

first 'war' against cc! then 'war' against anyone who stood up for him! followed by 'war' against anyone who likes/believes in anything 'except' science! even now with trump daily for the last 18 months virtually
non-stop; like a crazy person!!! war! war! war! hate hate hate! - you
haven't been "venting" you've been raving!

the fact that you even 'imagine' you're "anti-war" only proving just how 'deluded' you are and have been all along!?!? you have absolutely NO self-control! left-wing my eye! you're a wolf in sheeps clothing if you
believe that!

There is an alternative to extinction:
take good care of our entire planet.
All of it. All the time.

### - childish nativity and idealism! that's NOT the way it's BEEN!?!

and coz well, it's just a bit too late for all that!

we've already fucked-off 2/3 of it?!?

oh, you mean look after the 3rd we still gots left?

fat chance! they're just about to blow the shit out of that too, ourselves included!

where's your 'idealism' now?? (right here pally! heh...)

Hint: don't let people drop bombs on any part of it.

### - a bit too late for that too eh?

they're just about to drop some of the biggest shit they ever gots!?!

lol i dunno WHAT world you been livin' in jeremy, but i assure you it's
not been the real one!

let me put it this way ok? :

if the 'meek' are set to inherit the world, then YOU defo ain't gonna be
in it! LOL

okaaay?? (sorry 'bout that!)

anti-war in principle maybe, but not in fact!

not in... reality!

in reality: you've been one of the 'monsters' that's helped destroy
everything!

hate destroys! and your hatred has been far greater than your love??

accordingly: when they weigh YOUR heart against a white feather (as the egyptians believed) heh, well guess what; the 'feather' ain't gonna be winning?!?

and you're not even sorry!

jeremy: the peace & love merchant now???

riiiight.... :D

lol someone please tell me when hell freezes over!

(the closest you came to it was 'jazz', only unfortunately you didn't understand it from where IT was coming from? it's just another genre to
you! art too: as being something nice to maybe hang on a wall, but never
the message behind it that was ultimately responsible for creating it in
the first place!? - you 'think' you understand but you don't! - and you're
not even open to learning/advancing on that! you want 'everything' your
own way! the very 'attitude' that's destroying the world!)

i guess there's nothing worse than wounded pride eh?

it's a bummer :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOO4ROO_sPM

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

A perfect demonstration of how a man can rationalize anything,
no matter how crazy. Well done on proving that to everyone. :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)