From:
david.j.worrell@gmail.com
On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:24:47 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 19:00:52 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:
On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 9:59:33 AM UTC-8, slider wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 16:40:33 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan
wrote:
[...snip...]
Epilogue:
Of course, there's a snowball's chance in hell of you doing this.
It would probably be just as hard for you to use this method as
it would be for me to do WILD 10 times. It may well be almost
impossible for you if you do even try at all, simply because it
wasn't your own way of learning to do dreaming.
### - there's no 'actual' way to try to dild as there is to WILD!
Of course, there is. You just adopt the INTENT to succeed at it.
That's all I did.
### - so is that some kinda 'magical belief' or something, or what?? heh ;)
(kidding, i at least know what you mean, only i wouldn't exactly call
'that' a reliable switch involving a very more simple on/off like a real switch?)
Your joke might have been funnier were it not for how you turned
around and acted like you honestly believe your own intent
somehow directly affected Chris. Which actually would be more of
a "magical belief". You realize that, right?
meaning; one could spend an eternity 'intending' to dild and never succeed!
And yet it certainly wasn't my experience. It was the opposite.
Back in 1985 when I first decided to consciously attempt dreaming,
I began to succeed within only a couple of weeks of establishing
the definite intent to do it. Even back then I was surprised how
little time it seemed to take to 'kick in'. I was expecting a
longer struggle yet it happened fairly quickly.
even cc wrote that he initially spent a couple of years uselessly
'intending' to LD with little or no results to speak of? well, compare
'that' to the current record of only 11 days for a newbie obtaining their first real WILD when deliberately initiated
Something around that same amount of time is about how long it took
me to do the very specific form of DILD I have described, after
setting the deliberate intent to do it. Has it ever occurred to you
that the simple intent to do dreaming could also have an impact
on how people succeed at WILD? It probably is a component.
Again, there's nothing mystical about it. I think it's just
setting a firm determination in oneself to accomplish it
(coupled with a feeling of confidence that one can do it),
which then becomes deeply internalized in the mind and
begins to affect actual behavior.
In the case of DILD, it was almost like setting an unconscious
"alarm clock" - like internalizing the unconscious command:
"I will become aware in the midst of a dream", and then somehow...
that alarm would go off and... I would become aware in a dream.
THEN I would deliberately perform acts to continually reinforce
and exercise that state.
In my experience, it wasn't too terribly difficult. Indeed,
WILD for me has always been considerably MORE difficult.
Because I have to somehow consciously "make a leap" INTO
the dream state. To me, that often seems just as hard as
intending to become lucid while already dreaming seems to you.
That's why I maintain that dreaming is subject to personal
preferences and 'predilections'. I don't think there's any
one "right way" for every person.
(i too spent somewhere around
18 months 'intending' to dild for all i was worth lol, with absolutely
nada to show for it!) there really is no comparable comparison between the
2 methods; one is purely practical and the other... unclear/nebulous, and actually kinda non-rational/ridiculous involving no real + actual method
at all!
Right. But all that really shows is your own 'predilection'. Plus,
I'd guess you just found it hard to really 'believe in' DILD.
Also, if you do not have an "inner confidence" that you can achieve
what you're doing, then your intent is not potent. It's not exactly
like 'positive thinking'; it's more like harboring a truly confident
assumption that you can succeed.
Chris still finds it damn difficult to do WILD. Don't you, Chris?
So do I.
It would really be kinda nice if you could ever acknowledge
my primary point, which is simply that FULL waking lucidity
CAN be reached in DILD.
### - never said it couldn't, only that it's NOT the norm/is actually
quite rare and definitely cannot be relied upon! not like you CAN rely on WILDing...
That's not honest. You've repeatedly implied that I couldn't have
attained full lucidity in DILD (although you have no way of knowing
what I have or haven't done).
i.e., offer someone the choice between waiting maybe 18 months just to
have their first LD, or only 2 weeks to their first WILD and see which
they'd more likely choose huh...
no comparison!
That's funny because it did take me right around 2 weeks
to succeed at my first "structured DILD" after distinctly
intending to try.
Precise comparison! :)
Although to be fully honest, when I made that first attempt I had
also begun using other early techniques from Ixtlan, such as
'disrupting routines', 'the right way of walking', and curtailing 'self-importance'. However, all that may merely have helped
establish intent.
You just have to do the exercise I gave.
You don't even have to do it a hundred times like I did.
Let me assure you that gets boring, almost like 'working out'.
Yet to do so WILL result in FULL waking lucidity. I guarantee it. :)
### - couldn't have become MORE bored than waiting 18 months for fuck all
to materialise hah!
I only wrote that post about insisting you do dreaming my way
as a rhetorical device. I don't think you necessarily need to
do it my way, although the claim that it may build discipline and
sobriety to stay fully lucid in DILD may well be true. It's been
my position all along that people should use whatever methods of
dreaming work well for them. That's still my opinion.
whereas after realising i could WILD i even managed to repeat the
experience the very next night!
so put the 2 offers side by side: 18 months of nada with absolutely NO guarantee whatsoever, or only 2 weeks after which ya can quite
realistically repeat it virtually every night thereafter with no effort whatsoever! and you see 'which' people would more likely choose as their beginners method of choice?
like, how long did it take YOU to get your first dild via 'intending?
see what i mean? :)
Absolutely. In your case it's very clear.
Hopefully, you finally see what I mean, too. :)
And there's no lucidity beyond full waking lucidity.
That's as good as it gets. You may be doing other far-out stuff
with WILD by now that is probably more like some form of meditation,
but for sheer LUCIDITY, that's as good as it gets.
### - full is full alright, but is an unlikely standard eventuality where dilds are concerned, yet ever-present with WILDs even from your very first experience! and that's a BIG difference!
Ummm. No, what I have seen is that people can lose lucidity
(or never fully achieve it) in accounts of WILDs too. Maintaining
full lucidity and volition isn't guaranteed either in DILD or WILD.
It is, after all, an altered brain state, and peoples' mileage
seems to vary, from what I can see.
you could try every night and STILL wait forever on a dild or even your
next one IF you were lucky enough to nget one that is! and coz that's
what's involved with dilds: pure luck! whereas with WILDs one either
lucid
dreams or not by choice alone! (only a fool would thus fail to see the
rather obvious advantage WILDs have over dilds, n'cest pa?)
I already told you what the main advantage is. To learn by using
a systematic method in DILD FORCES you to develop greater discipline
and sobriety in dreaming. Similar to how lifting heavier weights
will eventually make you stronger.
### - sure, and if ya don't mind waiting maybe a couple YEARS to even get
the ball rolling?? lol
you were 'apparently' fairly lucky with it, but 'luck' it was as opposed
to just flipping a switch!
It wasn't luck. I did have a natural aptitude for dreaming, and yet
had experienced rudimentary lucid dreaming by what you call
"opportunity" alone only 3 or 4 times in the previous two decades.
When I began intending to do dreaming, I succeeded for the first time
in around two weeks and subsequently increased my frequency of LD
by well over 10 times what it had ever been "naturally". Again,
that is proof that intent made a difference.
It's not 'on-demand', though. It's a more... 'organic' way.
And realistically, for anyone with any kind of a "balanced life",
they're not going to want to do dreaming every single day anyway,
no matter what method is used. I doubt if even a total fanatic
like you does it every single day. :) And most people with
real lives probably wouldn't do it more than a few times a week,
even after becoming skilled at WILD.
I preferred the concept of doing dreaming when it is somehow
"the right time for it". And that's how I chose to do it, for the
next 20 years. With a good deal of effort, but without obsession. :)
I really think you ought to drop your seemingly strident insistence
that everyone on earth must do dreaming the same way you do, or that
people "replace sleep with it" or anything obsessive like that.
I find that sort of fanaticism to be unhealthy and borderline offensive.
"We won't talk about dreaming any more," he said. "You might
become obsessed. If one is to succeed in anything, the success
must come gently; with a great deal of effort, but with no stress
or obsession."
LOL. :)
You may be comforted to know that Carlos himself largely
abandoned this dreaming technique, as he did so many of his
early practices. In The Art Of Dreaming, as the initial dreaming
exercise, in the first step at 'the first Gate' he replaces
this initial exercise with a method that's more like WILD. :)
Did you know that?
### - i will never attempt to DILD again, if only because it's an
impossible task per se?
And yet... you're almost contradicting yourself again, in that
you just told me you've had "dozens of DILDs" since learning
to WILD. To me, that's not mysterious because you set your intent
to do dreaming while doing WILD over and over. Naturally, that
could also cause you to have more DILDs. And you even say you are.
So actually, you too have already verified what I said.
If you thought about it, you would also realize that since you
now naturally have DILDs, you could also do the exercise exactly
as I suggested whenever you have DILDs. I'm not saying you
have to, just that you could, especially if you intend to. :)
there's no direct route to it, see? no available on/off switch!
The on/off switch is intent.
### - aha, and in which pocket do ya keep that switch ro play with then
huh?
that's NOT a switch jeremy, and/or is more like a genie in a bottle?
nah, ya can't seriously call 'intent' a switch lol, there's no comparison! plus am surprised at you for even suggesting such a thing??
It's kind of fun to look at what Carlos switched the technique to
in The Art Of Dreaming:
"The first gate is a threshold we must cross by becoming aware
of a particular sensation before deep sleep... A sensation which
is like a pleasant heaviness that doesn't let us open our eyes.
We reach that gate the instant we become aware that we're
falling asleep; suspended in darkness and heaviness."
Notice how similar that is to the moment just before WILD.
"There are no steps to follow. One just intends to become aware
of falling asleep... Intent or intending is something very
difficult to talk about. I or anyone else would sound idiotic
trying to explain it. Bear that in mind when you hear what I have
to say next: Sorcerers intend anything they set themselves to
intend, simply by intending it."
Well, ordinary humans do that too. :) The intent *I* am talking about
is just... ordinary human intent, which is probably the only kind
that really exists. That's truly how I succeeded at DILD on a
regular basis and how I reached full waking lucidity in DILD.
"the only way to intend is by focusing your intent
on whatever you want to intend" - don Juan
### - amazing then what people can actually achieve when they put their
minds to it; we can apparently even achieve the impossible!
tell ya what; you stand on one corner offering 'intent' as the express
means to LD, and i'll stand on another offering a far more wholly
practical means of reaching a fully lucid dream state, and i think you
know what peeps would more likely go for?
It doesn't need to be a competition. Except to you... apparently. :)
LOL.
It also helps to really give a fuck. :)
### - newbies to LDing are genuinely + generally very enthusiastic, and you're only bored with it now because it never went beyond the first gate? else you'd likely still be doing it even now!
gates of dreaming eh?? i shit 'em! :)
and on them! heh...
It's a pity you insist on remaining so arrogant about your ways.
I've decided that it's worthwhile and interesting to revisit
Castaneda's 'gates' to make some important points, so bear with me
and hear me out while I pursue that discussion further.
CC made a distinction between arriving at a gate of dreaming
and crossing it. In The Art Of Dreaming, he said one arrives
at the first gate by becoming aware of falling asleep, and
said one 'crosses' or 'passes' the first gate by doing this:
"First you must focus your gaze on anything of your choice as
the starting point. Then shift your gaze to other items and look
at them in brief glances. Focus your gaze on as many things
as you can. Remember that if you glance only briefly, the images
don't shift. Then go back to the item you first looked at...
"We reach the first gate of dreaming by becoming aware that we
are falling asleep, or by having, like you did, a gigantically
real dream. Once we reach the gate, we must cross it by being
able to sustain the sight of any item of our dreams."
So I was incorrect to say CC discarded my initial dreaming exercise
from Ixtlan. He didn't. What he actually did was to clarify that
achieving that result is how one *crosses* the first gate. It's also
very interesting that he said the first gate can be reached in
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