From: allreadydun@gmail.com

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

ya lazy barsteward ya! (j/k) :D

i am such a bastard, in fact my two sisters are bastards also.

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in an unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
waking...

i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains, somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
of something all clicking back together as one becomes again recognisably oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps to explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you needed
to be/feel well?

well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more good night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".

now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence maybe your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
to watch that ya know...)

there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.

### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

let me know when you discover the right one eh?

if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of it (was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the wbtb technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and flitting back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...

so does that mean i had a loosy ap appearing on the scene dr. carlos?

'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead accidentally
i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is heh...)
:)

well when one is in the groove of lucidity it's all or nothing. You ether have awareness OR you're still a little asleep. It's the available memory
or energy is present so you grab that sucker and run like a bastard.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w
heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your
dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my dreams
haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will ever happen as all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
like wandering around on an empty set...) i'd likely just completely
ignore them and go off on my own exploration instead (was what i meant)

### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

### - this is WILDing heh, it (full WILDS) also puts yer average dilds
into contrast too, a seeming immediately noticeable qualitative difference
that jeremy fiercely denies exists (for petty reasons of his own) but
which is definitely the case as just about anyone who experiences a WILD attests to, including even the half-assed WILDs generated using wbtb which
most peeps describe as always being particularly vivid and more easy to remember than usual...

### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in
an
unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
waking...

i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

### - totally accept you weren't shooting for anything in particular,
hence an 'unwitting' WILD (and hence also my very slight dig at you for
still doing things in your sleep hehehe... wake up! grinz...)

i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation
of something all clicking back together as one becomes again
recognisably
oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

### - power over one's own imagination & its creations while dreaming
perhaps, but with the added possibility of also powerfully affecting one's waking awareness too in that, for a little while afterwards at least,
one's more usual perception of the waking world is noticeably
different/altered (i described this altered awareness to be akin to having
been away from home for a few weeks, returning home, and noticing how everything persistently looks a little different for a few days until you
at last feel like you're completely back home again...)

### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps
to
explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and actually involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
(out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by illness
i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather than examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light colds
and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened
awareness" perhaps?

### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you
needed
to be/feel well?

well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more
good
night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".

### - no one is hehehe... but if ya has a plan to 'use' (or try to use)
the situation the next time it occurs instead of just feeling like shit
and hating it, it then becomes possible to be a slightly better patient,
one who's deliberately laying in-wait for it to come around and then
exploiting the novel situation instead of merely suffering from it and complaining hahaha ;)

now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't
around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence
maybe
your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots
to watch that ya know...)

there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.

### - here too apparently, came from japan or something this time but more usually from china

the kinda head-colds am referring to being more along the lines of just
one person having it for no good reason seemingly, obviously there's a
marked difference between the contagious kind and someone getting one
quite outta the blue...

### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

let me know when you discover the right one eh?

if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of
it
(was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the
wbtb
technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and
flitting
back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a
distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...

so does that mean i had a loosy ap appearing on the scene dr. carlos?

### - if ya wanna call it that, then yes heh... (i know you like/use his
model sometimes i mean + was said/used entirely for your benefit alone so
you'd know what am going-on about...)

my own version (said to myself i mean) being more along the lines of a
ball & cup socket-type arrangement that one's more usual/standard
awareness rests comfortably in, but which can come out of its socket to
varying degrees and be experienced differently... (i don't know if that's strictly true either, it's just how i kinda explain it to myself without getting stuck on the idea, or any idea come to that...) various
'allusions' referring to something that can't really be described too
good/in any other way, the difference being that cc asserted his model was mechanically accurate and not only an allusion... that in cc's
model/terms; your AP was probably looser than normal due to illness and
thus you had no problem shifting it a bit more to go half WILD on (i.e.,
you've applied wbtb before many times successfully, only this time + due
to being ill/out of sorts (already halfway out of your skull heh) you went
much farther with it and had a 'series' of lucid dreams that were probably WILDs, only you didn't realise that exactly else they would been full
WILDs...

'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do
something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead
accidentally
i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is
heh...)
:)

well when one is in the groove of lucidity it's all or nothing. You
ether
have awareness OR you're still a little asleep. It's the available
memory
or energy is present so you grab that sucker and run like a bastard.

### - well, with WILDs, one arguably isn't even actually asleep heh... so usually lucidity is as-full and as-complete as when waking, dilds usually varying quite considerably from dream to dream as standard, whereas with
WILDs it's always full as you go into the dream state with exactly the
same awareness you lay down to dream with! (no room for error see?)

with dilds, you're totally depending on 'opportunity' alone (pure chance!)
to supply the lucid dream, whereas with WILDs you only ever dream by
choice alone! (thus, imho, half-WILDs don't really count for anything as they're not deliberately initiated, but are kinda inadvertently stumbled
into, and as such are often mistakenly considered to just be rather vivid
dilds resulting from no known cause...)

thus the only way to have total control over the dream state (and of
oneself being in it) is via full WILDing + the distinct realisation that
you've just quite deliberately + in full conscious waking awareness of
doing so: PUT yourself there!

"epic" doesn't even begin to describe the resulting state of ultra-lucid awareness heh, nor does it describe the acute volition one experiences in
the dream state under such circumstances!

peeps really haven't cottened to it yet, but, because of their nature,
WILDs are set to eventually displace dilds altogether as the method of
choice when it comes to lucid dreaming...

not yet as there's still quite a lot of disinformation about WILDs &
WILDing to be overcome, dilds still rule, but soon when peeps realise the control WILDs afford compared to dilds...

WILDs Vs. DILDs! an awareness war?

the battle for which has hardly even been enjoined yet heh ;)

(slider humming: "it's only just begun...")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

(assuming we don't blow our silly selves up in the meantime that is huh...)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: allreadydun@gmail.com

WILDs Vs. DILDs! an awareness war?

the battle for which has hardly even been enjoined yet heh ;)

(slider humming: "it's only just begun...")

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmsJT_1pzQs

i was thinking of this more but both songs work.

(assuming we don't blow our silly selves up in the meantime that is huh...)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case w
heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up your >> dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my dreams haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will ever happen as

Here:

all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
like wandering around on an empty set...)

Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all "hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking
around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed.
That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
to do things like that?

i'd likely just completely
ignore them and go off on my own exploration instead (was what i meant)

If I didn't like a dream scene or the people in it,
very often that's what I would do too.

### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

### - this is WILDing heh, it (full WILDS) also puts yer average dilds
into contrast too, a seeming immediately noticeable qualitative difference that jeremy fiercely denies exists (for petty reasons of his own) but
which is definitely the case as just about anyone who experiences a WILD attests to, including even the half-assed WILDs generated using wbtb which most peeps describe as always being particularly vivid and more easy to remember than usual...

What matters is the degree of lucidity attained, not initiation method.
Chris is often only about half lucid, going by his own descriptions.

### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results in
an
unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
waking...

i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

### - totally accept you weren't shooting for anything in particular,
hence an 'unwitting' WILD (and hence also my very slight dig at you for
still doing things in your sleep hehehe... wake up! grinz...)

Chris didn't say he was WILDing. He said he took melatonin
and went to sleep. Then he woke up in the middle of the night
before going back to sleep and dreaming more.

i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and remains,
somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a sensation >> of something all clicking back together as one becomes again
recognisably
oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

### - power over one's own imagination & its creations while dreaming perhaps, but with the added possibility of also powerfully affecting one's waking awareness too in that, for a little while afterwards at least,
one's more usual perception of the waking world is noticeably different/altered (i described this altered awareness to be akin to having been away from home for a few weeks, returning home, and noticing how everything persistently looks a little different for a few days until you
at last feel like you're completely back home again...)

For the first 5 years or so, LD felt a bit like that to me too.
But that feeling was most likely related to my own beliefs about it.
After 10 or 15 more years of doing LD, it honestly no longer seemed
to really make that much difference to my waking state.

### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly altered
state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even helps
to
explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

I'd say it was something of a fluke. Over the years, I've seldom
done LD while sick - maybe only a couple of times in over 30 years.
To me, that makes sense, because when you're sick you have low energy
and so you are not at your max in terms of self-reflection or
awareness.

### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and actually involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
(out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by illness
i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather than examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light colds and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened awareness" perhaps?

I agree that being sick lets you see with 'slightly different eyes'.
The tradeoff is that you have far less energy (because your
body is using lots of your energy to fight off an invader).

https://www.avogel.co.uk/health/immune-system/flu/symptoms/fatigue/

### - appears you asked and received/gave to yourself just what you
needed
to be/feel well?

well i'm not completely well but i am definitely on my way. One more
good
night of sleep and i might just wake up tomorrow feeling good again.
I don't like being sick, i'm not a good "patient".

### - no one is hehehe... but if ya has a plan to 'use' (or try to use)
the situation the next time it occurs instead of just feeling like shit
and hating it, it then becomes possible to be a slightly better patient,
one who's deliberately laying in-wait for it to come around and then exploiting the novel situation instead of merely suffering from it and complaining hahaha ;)

now this is gonna sound a bit nuts (heh) so it's a good job jeremy ain't >> around to flip-out on me over it hah... and that is; that i've noticed
'some' head colds can defo be the direct result of malicious intent on
some bastard's part (they can send a damaging vibe that makes ya ill to
varying degrees; strange head colds being a common one of 'em, hence
maybe
your dream of peeps getting hurt and your subsequent refusal to let it
happen? ya kicked the snot outta him/them and even bit the bastard too
lol... been upsetting/annoying peeps again while driving have ya's? gots >> to watch that ya know...)

So that's a "magical belief" to comfort paranoids when they get sick
I guess? Fortunately, there's no evidence that really happens. :)
That never stopped you from believing something though, did it?

there is kind of epidemic here in USA, particularly california with
the flu or colds. Has killed a few people i hear.

### - here too apparently, came from japan or something this time but more usually from china

the kinda head-colds am referring to being more along the lines of just
one person having it for no good reason seemingly, obviously there's a
marked difference between the contagious kind and someone getting one
quite outta the blue...

Like you would know how to tell the difference.

### - full of excuses & rationalisations except for the right one?

How hilarious for YOU to say that.

let me know when you discover the right one eh?

if anything, and imho, perhaps being unwell to begin with has the
advantage of starting off from the pov of already being slightly out of
it
(was already fairly loose in your socket/dimple heh) coupled with the
wbtb
technique; had you unwittingly WILDing (with a lower case w) and
flitting
back & forth for a prolonged period, something which is known to cause a >> distinct sensation/feeling of detachment on waking + a boost in energy
that might just have repaired the damage that caused your cold...

so does that mean i had a loosy ap appearing on the scene dr. carlos?

### - if ya wanna call it that, then yes heh... (i know you like/use his model sometimes i mean + was said/used entirely for your benefit alone so you'd know what am going-on about...)

my own version (said to myself i mean) being more along the lines of a
ball & cup socket-type arrangement that one's more usual/standard
awareness rests comfortably in, but which can come out of its socket to varying degrees and be experienced differently... (i don't know if that's strictly true either, it's just how i kinda explain it to myself without getting stuck on the idea, or any idea come to that...) various
'allusions' referring to something that can't really be described too
good/in any other way, the difference being that cc asserted his model was mechanically accurate and not only an allusion... that in cc's
model/terms; your AP was probably looser than normal due to illness and
thus you had no problem shifting it a bit more to go half WILD on (i.e., you've applied wbtb before many times successfully, only this time + due
to being ill/out of sorts (already halfway out of your skull heh) you went much farther with it and had a 'series' of lucid dreams that were probably WILDs, only you didn't realise that exactly else they would been full WILDs...

'deliberately' WILDing, however, definitely magnifies the sensation, to
the point it can be examined more easily and apparently (if ya gonna do
something it's always better-er to do it deliberately instead
accidentally
i mean... assuming one can accept the responsibility of it that is
heh...)
:)

well when one is in the groove of lucidity it's all or nothing. You
ether
have awareness OR you're still a little asleep.

Actually your first statement: "with lucidity it's all or nothing",
contradicts your second statement: "you either have awareness OR you're
still a little asleep".

First off, bullshit. You've never been awake, self-aware,
and yet also at the same time a bit groggy?

Secondly, if he realized he was dreaming at all then he was
at least partially lucid, i.e. partially mentally awake.

I say there are definitely 'degrees of lucidity'. Chris often gives
us good examples of LD where he's really only about 'half lucid'.
He knows he's dreaming, but still responds to a dream scene as
if it's somehow real and occasionally gets caught up in it.

You can realize you're dreaming and still proceed to treat the dream
as if it is real in some way. Most LDers do that occasionally.

Also, sometimes one can become confused as to whether one is
dreaming or awake. That too I consider "partial lucidity".
You gave examples of it yourself just today when you talked
about how confusing it can be to "wake up" in your "real bed".

This is actually WHY the initiation method doesn't matter as much as
the degree to which one becomes and stays mentally awake in the dream,
which isn't exactly quantifiable except subjectively (perhaps one day
in a sleep lab it can be more objectively quantifiable somehow).

What I found, personally and subjectively, after hundreds of LDs,
is that when I feel fully mentally awake, I almost always know
for sure whether I'm dreaming or am awake in the real world.

However, I found an exception to that rule, which can happen
when I have a false awakening in a copy of my real-time
real-world home. Sometimes when that happens I subjectively
believe I am mentally awake (like... really awake), when truly
I'm still dreaming and it just has not yet become apparent.

How can I know, if the world I'm perceiving looks and feels exactly
like it really would look and feel if I had really woken up?
I've done that a lot.

Am I saying then that dreams and reality may be the same thing?
NO. I am definitely not saying that. :) I'm saying that because
the same amazing brain creates both, sometimes it can be hard
to tell the difference, at least for awhile.

Yes, it is something of an advantage to initiate dreaming from
a full waking state - and yet truly, most people don't really do that
even with WILD, since they use deep relaxation techniques and focus
on hypnagogic states on the borderline of sleep to initiate WILD.

When you slip into a dream state using WILD, you are doing it
right on the borderline of Sleep Stage 1. That should not be
considered "fully mentally awake".

Even MORE important than the state you are in while initiating
LD is... how mentally awake can you become while inside a dream?
And how long can you remain fully mentally awake while there?
Those are the issues, independent of initiation method.

The one thing I know that has been found about WILDs in research
is that people more often believe themselves to be having OOBs
in WILD. And all that means to me is that people are just as
prone to mental delusions in WILD as they are in DILD. :)

What I found to be the BEST way to become and remain fully awake
inside LD is: while awake, decide to perform some specific activity
when you go lucid, and then continually perform it inside a dream.

[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs

:)

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case

w

heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this
several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're 'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
WILDs)

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up

your

dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my
dreams
haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even
slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool
me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will
ever
happen as

Here:

all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
like wandering around on an empty set...)

Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

### - yes "here" :) - again confusing content with degrees of ultra
lucidity, thus again revealing your express 'lack' of experience in this direction (you always pick up on the specific ref. points in error and end
up talking nonsense, or worse; putting words into my mouth that i didn't
either say or intend) :)

so what do i mean then by interesting or exciting if it doesn't refer to
some kinda dazzling content? well, put it this way; do 'you' find weird
shit going on when you're fully awake at home? do object fly up in the air
all by themselves and/or morph spontaneously into other things right in
front of your eyes? no of course they don't, people may do weird things
but objects and scenes do not and are stable to a point... what's
*interesting* is the ultra high degree of lucidity that's a standard +
marked feature of WILDs, scenery so real-seeming & convincing that many
times i've had to question whether am still actually dreaming or not, so 'concretely' real and unchanging that it's hard to believe you're still
only dreaming, and that's... intriguing!

fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of
awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all "hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed. That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
to do things like that?

### - again, it's not the 'content' (heh) it's how different 'oneself' is
under such circumstances of altered awareness! how 'available' (to
oneself) that unusual awareness suddenly is! the 'new' areas of awareness
one can then extend oneself into under such circumstances! that instead of everything being a mish-mash of jumbled content (as is virtually always
the case with dilds) that part is quiescent and thus not competing/vying
for one's attention! the 'content' is/thus becomes secondary to oneself
even being in such a situation! it's the *situation* that's interesting!
the novel 'place' in awareness one has somehow extended oneself (and one's awareness) into!

'your' problem... is that you initially investigated LDing with a very
heavy + set agenda! you went into it all with a whole heap of prior expectations! (quite unrealistic expectations as it all turned out...) and
when those phony expectations didn't materialise, you lost all interest! effectively throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater in the
process!

well, i DIDN'T go into lucid dreaming with ANY expectations whatsoever!
for sure i initially tested out a few things i'd *heard* (and read) about,
but that was it! consequently, the whole thing (for me) is about being
ABLE to BE able to project my full waking awareness into a completely
altered state of awareness altogether, no drugs, agents, aids, gizmo's or anything whatsoever involved!

and... apparently... 'anyone & everyone' is also able to do it too!

it's BETTER than drugs! :)

AND it doesn't cost fuck-all either! heh! :)

question: why do peeps even LIKE drugs and getting-off their faces and
stuff? what have they been getting-out of doing things like that if not
the novelty of experiencing partial altered states of awareness and also, perhaps more importantly; the altered state of 'themselves' under such conditions? (their own altered + novel state of awareness that they
experience first-hand while under the chemical influence of such things, i mean... they're escaping from what exactly?)

that in THAT sense; drugs have provided only 'glimpses' and/or 'clues'
(often grotesquely distorted by the substances themselves...) of something (about themselves) that people quite like! and often find 'inspiring' for example? and as an express means of reaching some rather indefinable part
of themselves that they find intriguing! areas then, of our own awareness,
that under normal conditions we don't generally have access to! little knowing/realising that we don't even NEED such substances to access those
very same areas and more!

that in THAT sense (and context) WILDs provides direct access to those
very same altered states of awareness but in a completely 'volitional'
manner & way! and actually also in a far more 'complete' way as well! the result of 'drugs' being more like/equating-with being only 'semi-lucid' as opposed to being fully lucid!

and WILDs... genuinely OPENS that door! ;)

what is *interesting* (about WILDs) is the resulting ACCESS into OTHER
areas of our OWN awareness like never before! and with no 'dependence'
upon anything except oneself involved!

iow: it ISN'T just about LDing! (which apparently is only one option among
many when WILDing) but involves other as yet unexplored/unknown areas of awareness too!

and THAT'S interesting! :)

YOUR problem is: you're still STUCK on lucid dreaming itself and haven't
moved on from that!

:)

i'd likely just completely
ignore them and go off on my own exploration instead (was what i meant)

If I didn't like a dream scene or the people in it,
very often that's what I would do too.

### - been there a few times too: is this 'really' only a dream??

dude this puts taking power plants as baby stuff.

### - this is WILDing heh, it (full WILDS) also puts yer average dilds
into contrast too, a seeming immediately noticeable qualitative
difference
that jeremy fiercely denies exists (for petty reasons of his own) but
which is definitely the case as just about anyone who experiences a WILD
attests to, including even the half-assed WILDs generated using wbtb
which
most peeps describe as always being particularly vivid and more easy to
remember than usual...

What matters is the degree of lucidity attained, not initiation method.
Chris is often only about half lucid, going by his own descriptions.

### - prolonged lucid dreaming seems to consistently do this, a short
single dream may leave ya feeling somewhat energised (a bit anyhoo)
whereas longer ones, or even a series of them, nearly always results

in

an
unusual sense of detachment that lingers for quite some time after
waking...

i was just shooting for some healing, remember, not trying to save the
world this week. (maybe next week?) ha ha

### - totally accept you weren't shooting for anything in particular,
hence an 'unwitting' WILD (and hence also my very slight dig at you for
still doing things in your sleep hehehe... wake up! grinz...)

Chris didn't say he was WILDing. He said he took melatonin
and went to sleep. Then he woke up in the middle of the night
before going back to sleep and dreaming more.

### - wbtb dreams are usually WILDs, albeit unwitting ones... thus more
usually confused with having just been rather vivid/unusual dilds etc...
an 'unwitting/unrealised' WILD not really counting for much because it
*wasn't* deliberately initiated, thus not 'fully' lucid; a confusion +
seeming contradiction that completely disappears when 'deliberately'
initiated because you 'know' you've just put yourself there! quite deliberately! and that changes everything!

i.e., one's usual 'familiarity' with the waking world is, and

remains,

somewhat noticeably suspended for a while, often ending with a

sensation

of something all clicking back together as one becomes again
recognisably
oneself... (a couple of hours solid WILDing always does this for moi
anyway, so maybe it's the same from prolonged dilds too...)

realizing the amount of power that is at your fingertips in a
lucid dream is unbelievable. it real is available.

### - power over one's own imagination & its creations while dreaming
perhaps, but with the added possibility of also powerfully affecting
one's
waking awareness too in that, for a little while afterwards at least,
one's more usual perception of the waking world is noticeably
different/altered (i described this altered awareness to be akin to
having
been away from home for a few weeks, returning home, and noticing how
everything persistently looks a little different for a few days until
you
at last feel like you're completely back home again...)

For the first 5 years or so, LD felt a bit like that to me too.
But that feeling was most likely related to my own beliefs about it.
After 10 or 15 more years of doing LD, it honestly no longer seemed
to really make that much difference to my waking state.

### - you've got to (yet to) realise that dilds are actually unwitting
WILDs heh, they are WILDs ostensibly performed unwittingly: in our sleep!
they are not 'deliberately' initiated directly but indirectly! in them,
one rises to waking awareness from a state of unconsciousness to varying degrees! FULL lucidity under the conditions of dilding is actually quite
rare and unusual! it's certainly not common! (else chris would report it
all the time instead of only occasionally?) whereas with WILDs it IS
common! actually standard! and while it may indeed BE possible for an
average person to achieve FULL lucidity under the conditions of dilding;
it would likely take them YEARS to be able to do so!

in ref. to the above-above: do a 4 or 5-hour WILDing session and see for 'yourself' just how much it affects waking awareness afterwards...

but then you claim that you can't, so you keep banging-on about dilds
because it's impossible for you to know what am actually expressly talking
out in ref. TO WILDs... dilds & WILDS are NOT the same! and you'd KNOW
that yourself if you'd done much WILDing! (30+ year old memories of what
MIGHT have been WILDs at the time simply doesn't count! as indeed nor do unwitting WILDs count either if not deliberately initiated! there's no comparison otherwise...

### - to be/feel ill like that, is to actually be in a slightly

altered

state of awareness anyway before ya even begin, and perhaps even

helps

to
explain your facility for many such lucid dreams last night

Perhaps Dr. Wild, you may be correcto.

I'd say it was something of a fluke. Over the years, I've seldom
done LD while sick - maybe only a couple of times in over 30 years.
To me, that makes sense, because when you're sick you have low energy
and so you are not at your max in terms of self-reflection or
awareness.

### - do you make this shit up as you go along or what? you're assuming
(now) that 'energy' has something to with it?? (who told you that: cc?? riiiight...)

based on what you 'think' (as opposed to actually knowing) you assume if someone is ill that they have low energy and that would necessarily affect their ability to LD?? bs! you don't KNOW that!

especially when i used a different context entirely to the one your now proposing??

(i merely suggested that awareness is different/slightly altered under conditions of being unwell, and that that may be a boon when it comes to slipping further into the altered state we call WILD, the implication
being that under normal healthy circumstances one's awareness is perforce perhaps more rigidly fixed (as fixed as it ever gets) and that being
unwell moves one from off of one's more normal spot than usual so to
speak, something that 'can' possibly be used as a kind of springboard into other altered states if one was inclined to consider doing so...)

### - that awareness CAN be different is a given/no-brainer, and
actually
involves quite a large spectrum/range too... being ill definitely
impinging on one more normal awareness, only usually people feel too ill
(out of sorts/uncomfortable in themselves at the time) to be bothered to
experiment with it any, one mainly craving to just feel normal/well
again... the trick there (with altered awareness brought about by
illness
i mean) is to not focus on the suffering self at all, and to attempt to
look beyond it (and yourself feeling unwell) in order to then catch a
glimpse of the world looking/being different for a little while (we
usually do notice things looking different from normal when ill, but put
this all down to not being very well and discard it altogether rather
than
examining it further + feel too ill to be bothered with anything... the
more ill you are being the harder it is to look beyond it, but light
colds
and such like always afford an opportunity to see/look at the world with
slightly different eyes for a little while...) shades of "heightened
awareness" perhaps?

I agree that being sick lets you see with 'slightly different eyes'.
The tradeoff is that you have far less energy (because your
body is using lots of your energy to fight off an invader). https://www.avogel.co.uk/health/immune-system/flu/symptoms/fatigue/

### - that's all very rational & logical and stuff, but those "slightly different eyes" (as you call it) is actually indicative of having already shifted (from off of one's more usual spot etc) into a somewhat altered

[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: david.j.worrell@gmail.com

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:57:32 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs

:)

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower case

w

heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're 'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
WILDs)

You don't even realize how you continually contradict yourself. :)

In your last post, you tried to argue that there aren't degrees
of lucidity, you claimed a person is either fully awake or
a little bit asleep. And that's wrong.

Now you're going to the other extreme, acting like WILD *always*
results in some sort of "super-awakeness", with nothing whatsoever
to back up that claim. And I can see that it too is wrong, which you
could see as well if you simply thought for a second about the
accounts of all these goombahs you have now doing their first WILDs.

So apart from your tears of joy over having someone to argue with
on the internet again... briefly... LOL... you're saying very little.

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of bashing-up

your

dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my
dreams
haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even
slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't fool >> me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will
ever
happen as

Here:

all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is more
like wandering around on an empty set...)

Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

### - yes "here" :) - again confusing content with degrees of ultra
lucidity, thus again revealing your express 'lack' of experience in this direction (you always pick up on the specific ref. points in error and end
up talking nonsense, or worse; putting words into my mouth that i didn't either say or intend) :)

so what do i mean then by interesting or exciting if it doesn't refer to
some kinda dazzling content? well, put it this way; do 'you' find weird
shit going on when you're fully awake at home? do object fly up in the air all by themselves and/or morph spontaneously into other things right in
front of your eyes? no of course they don't, people may do weird things
but objects and scenes do not and are stable to a point... what's *interesting* is the ultra high degree of lucidity that's a standard +
marked feature of WILDs, scenery so real-seeming & convincing that many
times i've had to question whether am still actually dreaming or not, so 'concretely' real and unchanging that it's hard to believe you're still
only dreaming, and that's... intriguing!

Ultra lucidity! Scenery so real-seeming and convincing!
Are you fucking kidding me? What a total clown act you are.
What you're describing is nothing new to me.

You never even really get what I say. Every single trait you
trot out as some imagined difference between DILD and WILD is
a thing I'd already experienced over and over 25 years ago.

fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

Like I don't know that. You are incapable of hearing a word I say.
And now you're making fresh new claims since you've been pushed
to do so by having your previous positions debunked.

So now here's the new claim:
"You yourself are also quite different, with access to areas of
awareness in oneself no normally available/accessible."

Actually, that's true in certain ways and in others it isn't true.

The way in which it isn't true is that there's no "ultra lucidity" -
at least not that goes beyond being fully mentally awake, excited,
and motivated. Or, if perhaps you simply never experience such
states in waking then I feel sorry for you. Lucidity MEANS being
fully aware that one is dreaming, while in full possession of one's
waking memories. That's all it means. To have sharp and clear
self-awareness of what one is doing in dreaming while in a state of
rapt attention and while able to think similarly to when awake is...
as good as 'lucidity' gets.

If you think there's some "supernatural awareness" going beyond
that then I think you're as delusional as any Castaneda fanatic
ever was.

(There is also 'volition' similar to waking volition inside LD,
which is another issue. When I did LD I had full waking awareness
and more or less complete waking volition)

Now, the way in which what you said IS true - which we have not
talked about much before, and which you're only bringing up now
because you were badly losing the argument - is that in dreaming
one gains new 'awarenesses' of all the myriad things one can do
inside dreaming that can't be done at all in physical reality.
But that's just because it's a virtual reality where even one's
most outrageous fantasies of either thought or deed can manifest.
So yes, there are new 'awarenesses' of those aspects of dreaming.

There are different 'types' of 'volition' inside dreaming too,
which are also related to activities you can only do in dreaming,
like flying at will, for example.

I am also well aware that there are strange types of 'cognition'
in dreaming that aren't necessarily rational, once again,
because all kinds of "magical" things are possible within the
virtual reality of dreaming.

But those different 'types' of 'awareness' are not directly related
to degree of lucidity, which is what we were talking about. They are
related to activities one can do only in dreaming. And most of those
are not applicable in the real world.

Like 15 years ago or so... half of my lucid dreaming experiences started becoming more like that, where very often I'd be wandering around all "hyper-aware" in some empty house or building somewhere, or just walking around in the dark in my own house as if I'd just gotten up out of bed. That's one reason I lost interest. How many times does one really need
to do things like that?

### - again, it's not the 'content' (heh) it's how different 'oneself' is under such circumstances of altered awareness! how 'available' (to
oneself) that unusual awareness suddenly is! the 'new' areas of awareness
one can then extend oneself into under such circumstances! that instead of everything being a mish-mash of jumbled content (as is virtually always
the case with dilds) that part is quiescent and thus not competing/vying
for one's attention! the 'content' is/thus becomes secondary to oneself
even being in such a situation! it's the *situation* that's interesting!
the novel 'place' in awareness one has somehow extended oneself (and one's awareness) into!

Well, as usual I already know all about what you're talking about.
So you go do that shit another 500 times. See where it gets you.
Spend your entire fool life in the holodeck, see if I care.

The simple lack of realization on your part is that the same
degree of lucidity is quite possible in DILD. You always think
the problem is that I haven't done WILD - and yet... I have.
Not a lot, because I find it hard, but enough to know that
it isn't different from where I got to in hundreds of DILDs.

'your' problem... is that you initially investigated LDing with a very
heavy + set agenda! you went into it all with a whole heap of prior expectations! (quite unrealistic expectations as it all turned out...) and when those phony expectations didn't materialise, you lost all interest! effectively throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater in the process!

That actually wasn't the problem. In terms of achieving the highest
possible degree of lucidity it was more of a benefit. Sure, I was
delusional about exactly WHAT I was accomplishing in dreaming, yet at
the same time, I was incredibly strongly motivated and totally serious
about always doing my best at dreaming. The people you're turning on to
WILD these days are only 'playing games' compared to what I was doing.
I was putting my real life on the line and doing my level best to be 'impeccable' in dreaming at all times for years and years. That's one
reason I KNOW with no doubt that it simply isn't possible to become
"more lucid" than I had become, whether doing DILD or WILD.

That is the baseless assertion you keep making, that just by
changing the induction method, I'll attain some new, heightened
levels of lucidity. I know that can't be true because I regularly
attained my own highest possible levels of dream lucidity ages ago.

You're right about only one thing, which is that - most of the time -
the content of lucid dreaming doesn't really matter. But that's exactly
why the vivid instability of DILDs or the relatively stable content
of WILDs does not matter (I've experienced both of those 'types' of
dream content hundreds of times and even explained WHY those 'types'
of content likely exist - i.e. they result from dreaming being
initiated within different sleep stages).

Content doesn't matter! You say it yourself. So it doesn't matter
if the content is a "sorcery" context, or a "Buddhist" context,
or an "atheist" context. Nor if the dream scenes are incredibly
stable and realistic, or if they morph around all over the place.
Content doesn't matter! Content doesn't matter for the *degree of
lucidity* either! What does matter for degree of lucidity?
Two things mainly, and I already described them in detail.
To summarize:

One: adopting techniques that *necessitate* remaining fully lucid
*continually* inside a dream scene. I used several such methods.

Two: level of motivation and seriousness. I couldn't possibly have
been more motivated, and was dead serious about always doing my
total best to maintain full awareness in dreaming.

You keep acting like you 'know' I'd obtain a higher degree
of lucidity if only I'd keep entering lucid dreams from waking.
But I KNOW that's bullshit, not only because a handful of times I
did WILD, but because 25 years ago I was regularly achieving levels
of lucidity in dreaming similar to my most hyper-vigilant and
ultra-motivated states of *waking awareness* and that was true
regardless of how stable or unstable the content of the dreaming
scenes became. I know it isn't possible for me to be "more lucid"
than I was then because I'm not even capable of being "more awake"
mentally than that in my most intense daily waking states.

It's like you're asserting I could be much more awake than
I fucking am right now! And that's just such pretentious bs. :)

You're attached to things that really don't matter, and ignore
things that do matter.

well, i DIDN'T go into lucid dreaming with ANY expectations whatsoever!
for sure i initially tested out a few things i'd *heard* (and read) about, but that was it! consequently, the whole thing (for me) is about being
ABLE to BE able to project my full waking awareness into a completely
altered state of awareness altogether, no drugs, agents, aids, gizmo's or anything whatsoever involved!

Well, that's exactly what it was about for me too. Duh.
You're not ever saying a single thing that is news to me.

and... apparently... 'anyone & everyone' is also able to do it too!

it's BETTER than drugs! :)

Oh joy, he's expanding his internet argument into drugs.

Dreaming is different than 'drugs'. I wouldn't even compare the two.
And each 'drug' is different too.

AND it doesn't cost fuck-all either! heh! :)

question: why do peeps even LIKE drugs and getting-off their faces and
stuff? what have they been getting-out of doing things like that if not
the novelty of experiencing partial altered states of awareness and also, perhaps more importantly; the altered state of 'themselves' under such conditions? (their own altered + novel state of awareness that they experience first-hand while under the chemical influence of such things, i mean... they're escaping from what exactly?)

that in THAT sense; drugs have provided only 'glimpses' and/or 'clues'
(often grotesquely distorted by the substances themselves...) of something (about themselves) that people quite like! and often find 'inspiring' for example? and as an express means of reaching some rather indefinable part
of themselves that they find intriguing! areas then, of our own awareness, that under normal conditions we don't generally have access to! little knowing/realising that we don't even NEED such substances to access those very same areas and more!

The substances themselves are the drugs. And the states accessed on
drugs ARE different than the states accessed in dreaming because it
IS about 'the substances themselves' and how they alter neurochemistry,
and therefore alter the entire 'mode' of our perception.

Getting high really isn't all that much like lucid dreaming,
not for any of the many drugs I know. Not to me, anyway.

So yeah... you're really just... bullshitting again. :)

that in THAT sense (and context) WILDs provides direct access to those
very same altered states of awareness but in a completely 'volitional'
manner & way! and actually also in a far more 'complete' way as well! the result of 'drugs' being more like/equating-with being only 'semi-lucid' as opposed to being fully lucid!

Those very same altered states of awareness! What complete bullshit!
You're like a fanatical cult leader with no cult. Confidently preaching nonsense to anyone who will waste the time to listen. You don't even
care what kind of stupid claims come out of your mouth.

Your basic problem is that you have no genuine integrity or objectivity.
You're a fanatic who assumes anything he feels like believing is true.



[continued in next message]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)

From: slider@anashram.com

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 21:05:25 -0000, Jeremy H. Denisovan <david.j.worrell@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, January 29, 2018 at 11:57:32 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

oh nooo, the bitch is back, bitchin' as usual...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upR7GQ5ToCs

:)

On Tuesday, January 23, 2018 at 11:18:41 PM UTC-8, slider wrote:

### - still WILDing in yer then sleep eh? (WILDing with a lower

case

w

heh)

honestly you wish you can have a lucid dream like this.
this fucker was epic.

### - WILDs are epic, can't describe them any other way

You describe some of yours just below, and... not epic.

### - being an old dild-o of old, who has nothing to compare/contrast it
too, you merely confuse 'content' with degrees of lucidity (you do this
several times below imagining you're making good points, when all you're
'really' doing is revealing/confirming your 'lack' of experience with
WILDs)

You don't even realize how you continually contradict yourself. :)

### - YOU don't even realise how you continually bs everyone in an authoritarian/dictatorial manner.

seig fucking heil! :)

In your last post, you tried to argue that there aren't degrees
of lucidity, you claimed a person is either fully awake or
a little bit asleep. And that's wrong.

### - lol you're a pedantic asshole AS usual! i wasn't even talking to
you! i was responding to chris?

i.e., i talk to chris differently than i talk to you! completely
differently! and if you hadn't BUTTED IN on our conversation in the first place, you wouldn't now be being told to BUTT-OUT! (6 words, and he & i understand each other almost perfectly! no difficulty whatsoever! 1000
words with YOU tho' and you STILL can't even keep up without having to
'invent' totally irrelevant shit just to have something to say??

duh! :)

Now you're going to the other extreme, acting like WILD *always*
results in some sort of "super-awakeness", with nothing whatsoever
to back up that claim. And I can see that it too is wrong, which you
could see as well if you simply thought for a second about the
accounts of all these goombahs you have now doing their first WILDs.

So apart from your tears of joy over having someone to argue with
on the internet again... briefly... LOL... you're saying very little.

### - YOU'VE got nada whatsoever to back up YOUR claims! thus you're
forced to resort to INVENTING shit (LYING!) just to have something to say
& argue about??

you totally misunderstand what people are saying and then you're the
authority on the subject??

lol fuck off! i don't HAVE to answer to YOU! :)

truth is you understand very little! mainly because you don't (or just
can't) listen properly!

having heard the 'same' thing said more than several times put in
different ways, you're STILL unable to get what's actually being said?? i
mean, to completely miss the mark once or twice is permissible with such difficult subjects, but to only ever hear your OWN ideas when listening to other people's and then blame THEM because there's something YOU don't understand, is moronic jeremy!

this isn't rocket science ya know! so are you just thick or what? lol! :D

### - not lucid enough though to realise the futility of

bashing-up

your

dream characters heh ;)

well i didn't go completely crazy, it started me going so it was

ok.

### - was only kidding ya heh... am personally rather a snob in my
dreams
haha, have dispassionately examined quite a few DC's by now (even
slapped
a few of 'em around lol to see what they're made of) and they don't

fool

me one bit anymore hah!

if i ever found myself in a similar situation (something i doubt will
ever
happen as

Here:

all my lucid dreams these days are actually quite orderly with
hardly anything happening in them like fights and rows etc, but is

more

like wandering around on an empty set...)

Yeah, so how is that so very interesting or exciting?

### - yes "here" :) - again confusing content with degrees of ultra
lucidity, thus again revealing your express 'lack' of experience in this
direction (you always pick up on the specific ref. points in error and
end
up talking nonsense, or worse; putting words into my mouth that i didn't
either say or intend) :)


so what do i mean then by interesting or exciting if it doesn't refer to
some kinda dazzling content? well, put it this way; do 'you' find weird
shit going on when you're fully awake at home? do object fly up in the
air
all by themselves and/or morph spontaneously into other things right in
front of your eyes? no of course they don't, people may do weird things
but objects and scenes do not and are stable to a point... what's
*interesting* is the ultra high degree of lucidity that's a standard +
marked feature of WILDs, scenery so real-seeming & convincing that many
times i've had to question whether am still actually dreaming or not, so
'concretely' real and unchanging that it's hard to believe you're still
only dreaming, and that's... intriguing!

Ultra lucidity! Scenery so real-seeming and convincing!
Are you fucking kidding me? What a total clown act you are.
What you're describing is nothing new to me.

You never even really get what I say. Every single trait you
trot out as some imagined difference between DILD and WILD is
a thing I'd already experienced over and over 25 years ago.

### - so you 'say'? - and then you also affirm on several occasions that
you: CAN'T WILD!

bs jeremy! you haven't experienced anything! dilds yes WILDs no! and then
you fill in the blanks with pure horse shit LOL! over 25 years ago you
THINK you MIGHT have had 5 or 6 WILDS tops???

fuck off with that bs! you quite obviously don't know wtf you're even
talking about! they're NOT the same! and IF you'd ever REALLY WILDed you'd
KNOW that! but you haven't, and you don't! so why don't you STOP waffling
& bs-ing!

you might know something about dilds, but you DON'T know anything
personally about WILDs!

sorry pal, but 25+ year old 'memories' of what MIGHT have been WILDs just doesn't count!

doesn't count for shit! so don't come-it like you're suddenly an expert on WILDs already when you quite obvious are not! (you're SUCH a bullshitter!
and you don't see anything wrong with that?? well that makes ya a nutjob
then innit!) :D

fascinating actually! it's like being in another real world! a world in
which you yourself are also quite different! with access to areas of
awareness in oneself not normally available/accessible!

### - yes! (really laughing...)

Like I don't know that. You are incapable of hearing a word I say.
And now you're making fresh new claims since you've been pushed
to do so by having your previous positions debunked.

### - am holding exactly the same position as i have all along jeremy! no
NEW claims at all!

again, you just haven't been listening!

So now here's the new claim:
"You yourself are also quite different, with access to areas of
awareness in oneself no normally available/accessible."

### - i documented all this in the book? can't you read properly either?

this is nothing new! one's awareness IS different under the conditions of
lucid dreaming! and is certainly not the same as ordinary waking awareness
is! i don't, for example, have a photographic memory under normal
conditions, whereas in WILDing i do! plus loads of other things like that
too! :)

Actually, that's true in certain ways and in others it isn't true.

### - am only interested in the way i've personally described it? i know exactly what I'M saying alright, and also WHY am saying it, PLUS what it's based on! i know what i mean! you DON'T want to know what i mean tho', you
just want to, off the bat, contradict everything and anything i might say!
you don't/wont even make the 'attempt' to grasp what am actually saying/suggesting + why!

well it's no skin off MY nose jeremy if ya don't WANNA understand, duh!

personally, i think you actually understand all too well, and thus,
feeling threated as such, you literally trample down 'anything' that's
said + hijack every thread in order to turn it all into just another
slanging match?

call yourself an intellectual?? LOL no chance! you don't HAVE the required disciple to even conduct yourself properly in a simple discussion, let
alone actually + genuinely debate something??

you're a dick! :D

The way in which it isn't true is that there's no "ultra lucidity" -
at least not that goes beyond being fully mentally awake, excited,
and motivated. Or, if perhaps you simply never experience such
states in waking then I feel sorry for you. Lucidity MEANS being
fully aware that one is dreaming, while in full possession of one's
waking memories. That's all it means. To have sharp and clear
self-awareness of what one is doing in dreaming while in a state of
rapt attention and while able to think similarly to when awake is...
as good as 'lucidity' gets.

### - 'logic' ain't gonna get ya out of this situation jeremy! awareness
is different again under the conditions of WILDing; it's even MORE acute!
and IF you'd done any WILDs recently you'd know that! and you'd know the difference too! as it is; all ya gots to play with is logical deduction as backup?? there IS a difference! and you're NOT aware of it! (which is why
ya keep banging-on about dilds heh, like there's some comparison...)

If you think there's some "supernatural awareness" going beyond
that then I think you're as delusional as any Castaneda fanatic
ever was.

### - see, there ya go again INVENTING shit?? lies! no one's even
mentioned the term "supernatural" except you?? plus YOU were the one who
WAS delusional re castaneda remeber, not moi? :)

there ARE some very strange things though that apparently only occur when WILDing! and of which lucid dreaming is only ONE available thing? another
thing is being able to be in several places at the same time! (don't hear
much about 'that' in dilds do ya!) another thing is the 'midway point' (as
i've termed it...) a place in awareness apparently existing somewhere
between waking and lucid dreaming! it's also quite possible to stand in
ALL 3 places at the same time! (definitely very strange indeed hehehe, but
also extremely cool!)

(There is also 'volition' similar to waking volition inside LD,
which is another issue. When I did LD I had full waking awareness
and more or less complete waking volition)

### - yeah, albeit coming from the opposite direction altogether? (rising
to waking awareness from a state of unconsciousness as in dilds, versus
not losing consciousness at all between waking and WILDing, and wherein
one doesn't at all feel like one IS asleep! (chris recently described
sitting in his bath experiencing something very much along these lines
that confirms the above? his comment at the time being along the lines of exclaiming that " holy cow, it IS possible to be awake AND dreaming AT the
same time!" (or certainly said words to that effect no?)

but then i suppose you DON'T understand THAT either, have an alternate explanation to explain it away, and thus want to contradict him too, yes?

all you do 'persisting' with this crap, is to continually reveal that you
don't actually KNOW wtf you're talking about in the first instance! you're resorting to using dilds to 'explain' WILDs, when imho (and observation)
WILDs are far superior to dilds in almost every damn way!

Now, the way in which what you said IS true - which we have not
talked about much before, and which you're only bringing up now
because you were badly losing the argument - is that in dreaming
one gains new 'awarenesses' of all the myriad things one can do
inside dreaming that can't be done at all in physical reality.
But that's just because it's a virtual reality where even one's
most outrageous fantasies of either thought or deed can manifest.
So yes, there are new 'awarenesses' of those aspects of dreaming.

### - am not losing anything lol, i've been completely consistent all
along with this! and NOW you're reducing it all again to that of mere... content??

it's NOT a fantasy to be able to flit between several places/positions at
once! neither is the midway point a fantasy! neither is the quite apparent resulting qualitative difference existing between the 2 very different approaches! i may have difficulty explaining/defining it, but that's only because it's new and am thus forced to invent new terms for some of it!
terms that have yet to become fixed, so if i wanna switch to using the
term 'ultra' awareness in order to 'allude' to something not yet
definitively defined and nailed down, then i can! 'qualitative difference'
and 'ultra awareness' quite obviously referring to exactly the same thing
is all! a subjective impression! NOT a different thing! the SAME thing!
just different but ultimately similar terms attempting to
describe/allude-to the very SAME thing! :)

There are different 'types' of 'volition' inside dreaming too,
which are also related to activities you can only do in dreaming,
like flying at will, for example.

### - not talking about such things because that's more to do with content
and not the raw + novel awareness itself that's involved!

I am also well aware that there are strange types of 'cognition'
in dreaming that aren't necessarily rational, once again,
because all kinds of "magical" things are possible within the
virtual reality of dreaming.

### - am not even talking about such things either heh, there's a place in WILDs (the midway point) where one isn't even actually lucid dreaming! and
from which pov LDing becomes only a single option hovering ever so
slightly off to one's left! just as the clear option to be back in bed
hovers ever so slightly off to one's right (at least, that's how it subjectively appears, just as when you're apparently standing in a
completely black void with no signs of even having a body at all; there IS
only a very subjective impression of up and down too!)

But those different 'types' of 'awareness' are not directly related
to degree of lucidity, which is what we were talking about. They are
related to activities one can do only in dreaming. And most of those
are not applicable in the real world.

### - well that's where your 'theory' is incomplete jeremy! only WITHIN an actual lucid dream does ANY of what you describe above apply! you're
talking content again! and am NOT talking about the content of some lucid dream! am talking about one's OWN altered sense (plus state) of awareness
that prevails UNDER such conditions!


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