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He was an outsider. He was the genius who conceived of his diagrams
which perfectly explained the intricacies of particle physics and
quantum mechanics.
They come in varying degrees shades colours and types. I pride
myself on achieving what I want or taking what I need by playing the
game and ostensibly being a member of the club while being nothing of
the sort and having a rich inner universe which may have little
interaction with the club that you belong to.
So what? So do I. We can both do that because to some degree we
are quite capable of maintaining the role of an "insider".
For most people the roles of 'insider' OR 'outsider' can indeed
be adopted, and also dropped. I'm saying that our core identity
is much richer and more flexible than any such roles.
Nope. Most people are brainwashed from early childhood. Like you and
Chris. I was too but in interestingly different ways which partially
armed me to really give a good account of myself in the world.
Most people don't really have a core identity (whatever you mean by
that). If they do, the vast majority don't *know* it. The ignorant
teeming masses. Little do they know by and large what they're
missing.
But when I interact you
would never know, at least in the relatively short period over which I
do interact, that I'm *not* a member of *your* club Dave. And I don't
want to be, ever ;)
Non-sequitur. I don't have a "club". :)
But if I did, you wouldn't be invited.
Well dang. I was hoping...
I was being euphemistic by the way.
As one more example, I first read Dostoevsky's 'Notes from Underground'
when I was about 21, and then later (around 27, wrote a college paper
for an honors class on it). It is a more serious exploration of some
of the issues surrounding "being a loner".
There you go again. Symptomatic. Read what I said about your
psychological armour above.
Again, completely ignoring a substantial point just to attempt a >psychological attack. Dostoevsky's 'Notes' was an extremely
interesting view into a 'type' of 'outsider'. It shows very well
many of the advantages and disadvantages of adopting that
"role/persona".
And again, if Slider ever says anything half as profound
about the subject I'll be more than amazed. :)
You're talking to me here Dave, not slider. Deal with him separately
please.
And I've *adopted* nothing. It wasn't a choice. I was made - partly genetically and partly environmentally. What children have choices?
My choice was to confront my innermost self and my self delusions. I
did that. It was painful. I am not a member of your herd Dave. You
need to take that first step.
Here's a New Yorker article on that book:
https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/can-dostoevsky-still-kick-you-in-the-gut
Bottom line is that "being a loner" can yield anything from
a beneficial genius to a dangerous moron, depending on exactly
how one thinks and on how one proceeds to live. In general,
as an arbitrarily assumed "position", I'd call it limiting.
But you can't properly appreciate or deprecate something if you are
forever excluded from experiencing it or even from properly defining
it.
You're not really being rational. Your armour is protective, granted,
but it's also very heavy and it's therefore impeding your acuity and
agility.
Pure ad-hominem and drivel.
Fuck your pretentious latin bulldust :) You clearly have psychic
armour. Consider your true self identified. I'm trying to show you
how to deal with that potential calamity. Know thyself!
But then... I began dreaming, and in the context of Castaneda.
From the viewpoint of that reality (before I had ever read
anything about lucid dreaming from a more standard perspective
like that of LaBerge), I began to conceive of myself as something
more like "the ultimate loner", to the point that I believed
I was really doing things very few if any other humans could do
(living under the auspices of 'the spirit'). My self-label then
became more of "an aspiration" than "an identity", and it was
to be "a solitary warrior". But trust me, if you come to actually
fervently believe you are independently as an individual following
'the guidelines of the spirit', then you have indeed become
something of "an outsider". I did, and I was. Or so I thought...
Look, you know and I know that Castenada was a conman, a grifter as
you Yanks call them. He had the long play in mind with people like
you and Chris. As PT Barnum said, there's a sucker born every minute.
He also said I think, never give a sucker an even break.
A simplistic assessment of Castaneda - but yeah, that was ONE of his >characteristics. Again you ignored the real point I was making.
I don't believe your point - which, while you wrote the above to make
another point, is the real point you inadvertently make. That one can
become an outsider much later in life, after childhood's end. That's
bullshit because at that stage you are already indoctrinated. You
might be able to become a radical, or a rebel, or a member of a
strange political agenda/party, or an occultist, or a sage or a member
of a fucking cult like Lobsang Rampa's crap or Daniken's Chariot of
the Gods or your little short arsed grifter Carlos's sect - but if
you're not an outside by then, you lack both the genetics *and* the
childhood brainwashing.
In other words, it's far too late. That's why I ignored what you were
trying to say.
The dreaming stuff is on the nose to me as well. Fuck dreams, it's
hard enough dealing with reality. I don't drink alcohol and I don't
smoke tobacco and I don't eat unhealthy and junk foods because no
matter how intense reality is, I want to be there, sober and ready, to
deal with it. I don't need to manipulate dreams so that I can dive in
and hide from the light of day, which I why I believe you jumped from
the sinking raft Castenada onto another raft called lucid dreaming.
You don't seem to have the slightest idea of what I actually did.
It was really nothing at all like what you just said above.
I think it was - however I stand corrected by Slider that lucid
dreaming and Castenada's sect *teachings* were interlocked and
interconnected. I didn't realise that. In this case, I'm clearly
wrong. But in the larger broader sense about you and your searching
for meaning in life, which has failed by the way, I'm completely
correct.
Always searching, never finding - that's you. About time you cast all
this nonsense off and got on with what remains of your life on a 1:1
correspondence.
Well, that 'shot in the dark' at least has a little truth to it.
For many years I did search and find all sorts of dubious things.
But that was NOT EVER ALL I found. Not even close. When I look back
over the whole of my life most of it seems rather wonderful.
Really? Even though your marriage broke down? What's wonderful about
that?
Trying to paint other people in black and white tones has always
been a problem of yours. You're always trying to tell someone
else "that's you", as some ugly put down. You have pulled that
ugly trick on literally EVERY other person here. Guess what,
thang? That's you. :)
Do you really think, after reading what I've written above, that I'm
simply painting you in "black and white tones"? I'm trying to help
you. You're like an alcoholic who sees the devastation his monkey has
caused but simultaneously doesn't see it. It sounds very Irish but in
your case it's true. You have an issue. It displays itself in
arrogance here. You are hiding your true inner self from yourself.
Your life is full of self delusion. You will not face your true inner
self because of the harm you think that will do and the excellent
camouflage you have constructed over the last 55+ years.
You need to recognise these truths. Not here, because I don't need
your affirmation and I don't want you to feel humiliated. But go away
and think about it. Think about all the facts of yourself you show
here and the parts of your personality which reflect the sham you, as
opposed to the real underlying you which only shows occasionally and
even then as Freudian slips or Jungian complexes.
You can fix yourself. It will be very, very hard.
That belief turned out to be delusional. Importantly, the real
lesson is that pretty much ALL such beliefs are. As another even
more obvious example, trust me when I tell you that most of the
Scientologists consider themselves to be well beyond ordinary
human beings in every way. In fact, they believe that almost all
ordinary humans are insane. They very much consider themselves
to be "outsiders" in that sense. Yet the perpetual joke is that
almost every "outsider" really thinks he's got "the inside scoop"
on reality.
Again, I'll say, being an outsider is not a choice, it's part of who
and what you are. It's not a belief.
No, that's just your mistake. In some cases it's what you say.
But not in most. For many people it IS about a set of beliefs.
Hell, the Mormons moved out to a wildnerness area just trying
to get away from people persecuting them as freaks (which they are).
They were "outsiders" to the point of having to physically leave
all the other people behind.
And they became Mormons in childhood, as children of Mormon parents
and surrounded by Mormon schools, teachings and ways of life, to the
utter exclusion of any outside influences. Therefore, they became
outsiders due to childhood brainwashing.
Which is what I've been saying to Chris about being a fucking member
of the herd of cattle which was brainwashed into becoming unthinking
adherents of games where grown men stage mock combat with round or
eccentric balls.
Yet in no case, by birth, environment, or belief need it be
accepted as any "permanent identity" to be worn like some kind
of a fucking badge and forcefully applied in any situation,
and that's closer to the point I've been making.
Oh but you are so wrong even Blind Freddy's dog could see.
You're clearly not an outsider, or an outlier, or even a particularly individualistic member of the species.
Of course genetic makeup is a permanent identity and moreso when it's reinforced by childhood influence - whether it be traumatic or
advantageous (and some traumatic childhood events are in fact
advantageous to survival).
You've got eyes and some intellect. Use them.
Above was merely another example of your "black and white" thinking,
which seldom works.
Your sashaying after the little
mexican grifter was a belief, afterlife and soul and spirit are
beliefs - being an outlier to society and its norms is reality, not a
belief.
Again, you don't understand what I did. You've never even been to
the 'doorway' of the place. You've never faced the real test that
awaits a person there. You don't even know that test exists.
Much less have you faced it and rejected its siren song.
(Trust me, you don't even know what I'm talking about right now,
and I'm not going to explain it, because you wouldn't get it anyway.)
Hey I've explained myself in clear terminology in this thread. Why
won't you? Are you worried that the bullshit nature of this will be
exposed to ridicule?
I'm all grown up Dave and I've been around. Don't whitewash me, don't
piss down my back and tell me its raining.
At the time when I was a solitary practitioner of Castaneda's
dreaming, I was for all practical purposes as much of an "outsider"
as any "freak of nature" who's ever lived here. And yet... it is NOT
a permanent condition.
Please explain. Take your time.
It's genetic and environmental. It's ingrained cynicism born
of thinking correctly about everything built on genes which care less
about compliance with society's norms than with personal survival all
wrapped in an evelope made by childhood environment and sealed with at
least one parent's approval, for those lucky enough to have parents
and to have at least one who was a sharp, logical thinker.
I just disagree. Most people are NOT locked into any such boxes
or attitudes.
Because, Dave, most people are not outsiders. They, we, are a very
fucking small part of the population, way down the asymptotic part of
the distribution. Vanishingly small component.
Think about this. You'll see I'm correct.
You didn't really think about ANYTHING I've said.
Indeed, I'm about to conclude that it's not possible to have
a genuinely meaningful conversation with you.
I'll wait for your response to my current post. Judgement reserved.
School's out forever.
They are delusional too, of course. Over the years, I've actually
encountered many different individuals who considered themselves
to be "outsiders" in one way or another. I've been close personal
friends with several such people over the years. While interesting,
I have to report that in my opinion NONE of them had any truly
special insight into the human condition.
Clearly they had no insight into your particular condition and if you
and I had met you would see that what I am saying right here right now
I would have said directly to you after interacting with you for
probably 10 minutes.
Most of my friends in life have been considerably more perceptive
than you, not less. I said "special insight".
Most of your friends aren't restricted to posting on an archaic form
of pre-internet communication called Usenet. If we met face to face,
had a good yarn, we both would see each other much differently than at
present.
Catch up with someone like me and see what happens next :)
Yeah, sure. I know what happens next, because it already has. :)
This is a non-sequitor. Perfect example.
Another of your peculiar symptoms is that you continue to disparage
people. You state above that you've been close personal friends with
several such persons then you state that none of them had any
particular insight into the human condition. How could you be close
personal friends with people and disparage them so? You can't form
such friendships Dave but in your case it's not because you're an
outsider, it's because of your psychological armour due to the
grifter's betrayal and other betrayals.
I said "special insight". Most of my friends, and I've had and still
have many good ones, possess more normal insight into life than you
seem to have. I was saying that none of them had *special insight*,
such as that claimed by many "outsider" types.
No one has a lot of good friends. They think they are good friends
but they just haven't been subjected to the stress test yet. Believe
me, I know this. Your good friends are acquaintances until something
happens, like you need to borrow $50k with no certainty of payback, or
you are caught for some serious crime etc. Then, you can count your
"good friends".
This is another aspect of your self delusion.
As an extreme example, Castaneda suffered from what I've called
"specialness disease", where he acted as if he had all the answers
to life that NO ONE ELSE had ever been able to find. In that way,
he was an example of the "ultimate outsider", whose 'solutions'
to everything were extreme and very "special". His people were
the ultimate elitists.
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: www.darkrealms.ca (1:229/2)
