Well, the best laid plans of mice and men... Today, I decided to do the overdue 6 monthly SD card change on the BBS. It had actually been almost 7 months. Picked up an SD card at Office works and then proceeded to create an image of the corrent card. So far, so good.

The fun started when I went to copy the BBS to the new SD card. First attempt was up to close to 2 hours.... Hmmm, it should take only around half an hour.
dd was hung up, and I couldn't kill it, which suggested a filesystem issue. Further examination showed the data rate falling dramatically after copying 6MB.

Did a test copy from HDD to HDD to rule out dodgy HDD sectors. That worked perfectly *whew*. Hmm, looks like a dodgy SD card.

So on my way back from throws training this afternoon, I dropped into Officeworks and bought a different SD card. Ran the copy again and *bingo!* it
worked. Just put the system back online on the new SD card. Other than routine software upgrades and tweaks, I shouldn't need to do much until August,
when the next major overhaul is due. :)
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Vk3jed wrote to All <=-

Well, the best laid plans of mice and men... Today, I decided to
do the overdue 6 monthly SD card change on the BBS. It had
actually been almost 7 months. Picked up an SD card at Office
works and then proceeded to create an image of the corrent card.
So far, so good.

The fun started when I went to copy the BBS to the new SD card.
First attempt was up to close to 2 hours.... Hmmm, it should
take only around half an hour.
dd was hung up, and I couldn't kill it, which suggested a
filesystem issue. Further examination showed the data rate
falling dramatically after copying 6MB.

Did a test copy from HDD to HDD to rule out dodgy HDD sectors.
That worked perfectly *whew*. Hmm, looks like a dodgy SD card.

So on my way back from throws training this afternoon, I dropped
into Officeworks and bought a different SD card. Ran the copy
again and *bingo!* it
worked. Just put the system back online on the new SD card.
Other than routine software upgrades and tweaks, I shouldn't need
to do much until August,
when the next major overhaul is due. :)

If you've got a spare 2.5" HDD/SSD laying around, maybe it's time
to stop using the SD cards... I've got a RPi-2 running with a
500GB HDD here (not the BBS) and it works great. Effectively the
SD card becomes read-only and is used only for booting up. There
are many guides available for this, I believe I followed this one
a long while back:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=44177


... Internal Error: The system has been taken over by sheep at line 19960
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On 02-05-20 08:19, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

If you've got a spare 2.5" HDD/SSD laying around, maybe it's time
to stop using the SD cards... I've got a RPi-2 running with a
500GB HDD here (not the BBS) and it works great. Effectively the
SD card becomes read-only and is used only for booting up. There
are many guides available for this, I believe I followed this one
a long while back:

Would have to be the right drive, many make audible (to me) clicks, which, although they're a lot quieter, I find harder to fall asleep to than the noise of the old MFM drives in my original BBS machine, because the modern sounds are a lot sharper.

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a better fit for my setup and situation.


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While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD
would be a better fit for my setup and
situation.

I read yesterday that only a few USB controllers for
the external SSD support the TRIM command.

I will never buy a HDD again, too noisy and too many
died suddenly. It makes only sense if you have a
couple of them with automatic backups and or mirrored
/ some sort of non-strip RAID. Which makes it even
more noisy ...

To keep it simple: there are also high durability sd
cards from sandisk.

--- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
* Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)

On 02-06-20 08:45, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD
would be a better fit for my setup and
situation.

I read yesterday that only a few USB controllers for
the external SSD support the TRIM command.

Hmm, OK. :/

I will never buy a HDD again, too noisy and too many
died suddenly. It makes only sense if you have a
couple of them with automatic backups and or mirrored
/ some sort of non-strip RAID. Which makes it even
more noisy ...

HDDs are fine for bulk storage, if used carefully, and not in areas where noise is an issue.

To keep it simple: there are also high durability sd
cards from sandisk.

Hmm, how much more durable are they than the regular ones? I'm actually using Sandisk cards now, finding they work quite well.


... Artificial Intelligence: No match for natural stupidity.
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Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

On 02-05-20 08:19, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

If you've got a spare 2.5" HDD/SSD laying around, maybe it's time
to stop using the SD cards... I've got a RPi-2 running with a
500GB HDD here (not the BBS) and it works great. Effectively the
SD card becomes read-only and is used only for booting up. There
are many guides available for this, I believe I followed this one
a long while back:

Would have to be the right drive, many make audible (to me)
clicks, which, although they're a lot quieter, I find harder to
fall asleep to than the noise of the old MFM drives in my
original BBS machine, because the modern sounds are a lot
sharper.

Hehe, yeah I miss the sounds of those big old drives, and the
modem sounds...

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a
better fit for my setup and situation.

Perfect. There ya go, your weekend project is all lined up! :-)



... Beware of programmers who carry screwdrivers.
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Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a better fit
for my setup and situation.

They're certainly getting cheaper, and the power demands are lower. The limited life of SD cards has always given me pause, is there some way to
make a pi boot from SATA?


... What context would look right?
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Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I will never buy a HDD again, too noisy and too many
died suddenly. It makes only sense if you have a
couple of them with automatic backups and or mirrored
/ some sort of non-strip RAID. Which makes it even
more noisy ...

Some Dell systems come with Intel on-board RAID. I'm running 2x2tb drives in
a mirror, and it's saved my bacon when I had a drive fail.

To keep it simple: there are also high durability sd
cards from sandisk.

I bought a Sandisk "enterprise" SSD for my ESXi server at work, and saw the difference in cost between consumer and enterprise SSDs. I'm sure they're
all the same inside, just passing different levels of quality control.

I'd still RAID a pair of them. :)




... What do you think of the guests?
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Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Hehe, yeah I miss the sounds of those big old drives, and the
modem sounds...

I started off with 2 full-height 32mb drives, and those were beasts. When
I'd toss my Fidonet mail, they'd clunk away for a good 25-30 minutes and
wake me up.

I always kept the modem at L1 setting, so I could still faintly hear the connections. The BBS was in a walk-in closet turned into an office space, so it wasn't clunking away out in the open.




... What do you think of the guests?
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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Gamgee <=-

Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Hehe, yeah I miss the sounds of those big old drives, and the
modem sounds...

I started off with 2 full-height 32mb drives, and those were
beasts. When I'd toss my Fidonet mail, they'd clunk away for a
good 25-30 minutes and wake me up.

Hehe, at least you'd know there was mail still flowing.

I always kept the modem at L1 setting, so I could still faintly
hear the connections. The BBS was in a walk-in closet turned into
an office space, so it wasn't clunking away out in the open.

Ahhh yes. Modem init strings were nearly an art form. Spent a
lot of time analyzing/tweaking settings for those... :-)

I miss those days, honestly. You really had to work (and know
something) to get everything to perform the way you wanted.



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poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a better fit
for my setup and situation.

They're certainly getting cheaper, and the power demands are
lower. The limited life of SD cards has always given me pause, is
there some way to make a pi boot from SATA?

Yes, there certainly is.

Here's one method, and Google will show you more:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bootmodes/msd.md



... If it weren't for Edison we'd be using computers by candlelight
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Re: Re: A little downtime today
By: Gamgee to poindexter FORTRAN on Thu Feb 06 2020 10:31 am

Ahhh yes. Modem init strings were nearly an art form. Spent a
lot of time analyzing/tweaking settings for those... :-)

ATZ&L1&C!&D2
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On 02-06-20 07:07, Gamgee wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Hehe, yeah I miss the sounds of those big old drives, and the
modem sounds...

Modem sounds were great during the day. I had to keep mine muted on the BBS, but later, when the BBS moved house and I was only making outbound calls, I had the modem speaker on. :)

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a
better fit for my setup and situation.

Perfect. There ya go, your weekend project is all lined up! :-)

It's still well down the list. I have a new SD card in the system. :)


... Mind... Mind... Let's see, I had one of those around here someplace.
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On 02-06-20 06:44, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Vk3jed wrote to Gamgee <=-

While it's gilding the lily, a small (128GB) SSD would be a better fit
for my setup and situation.

They're certainly getting cheaper, and the power demands are lower. The limited life of SD cards has always given me pause, is there some way
to make a pi boot from SATA?

I think some of the newer ones can boot from other media, but in any case, there's no issue with booting off a SD, configued as read only, then using a HDD or SSD as your root volume.


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On 02-06-20 10:31, Gamgee wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Hehe, at least you'd know there was mail still flowing.

My first BBS machine would take 40+ minutes to toss a typical Fidonet packet.
)

I always kept the modem at L1 setting, so I could still faintly
hear the connections. The BBS was in a walk-in closet turned into
an office space, so it wasn't clunking away out in the open.

Ahhh yes. Modem init strings were nearly an art form. Spent a
lot of time analyzing/tweaking settings for those... :-)

Yes, perfecting the modem init string and/or saving the configuration as you wanted in NVRAM was definitely an art form.

I miss those days, honestly. You really had to work (and know
something) to get everything to perform the way you wanted.

So do I, the rewards for getting things working were immense in terms of personal satisfaction.


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To keep it simple: there are also high durability sd
cards from sandisk.

Hmm, how much more durable are they than the regular ones? I'm actually

using

Sandisk cards now, finding they work quite well.

I haven't bookmarked it and cannot find the link anymore, but IIRC some guy tested it for 6 month with 70 TB
written and it was still fine. Then he stopped the experiment. Other cards died
much earlier.

They are double the price of a standard sandisk and three times he price of cheaper ones. I wouldn't use the sd
card in the raspberry to store big media anyway. The couple of bucks more for a
32GB card don't hurt much (if they
are really that much more reliable).

I would love to see a Pi with an M.2 though, which would give us the option for
much more reliable and faster
storage. I guess it's just a matter of time ... RockPi and others already have it on board.

--- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
* Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)

To keep it simple: there are also high durability sd
cards from sandisk.

I bought a Sandisk "enterprise" SSD for my ESXi server at work, and saw

the

difference in cost between consumer and enterprise SSDs. I'm sure they're all the same inside, just passing different levels of quality control.

I'd still RAID a pair of them. :)

I whish the RPi had a second sd card slot ;)

--- CENSORED v0.00 ABC
* Origin: 🦄 🌈 (21:1/151)

On 02-07-20 09:34, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I haven't bookmarked it and cannot find the link anymore, but IIRC some guy tested it for 6 month with 70 TB
written and it was still fine. Then he stopped the experiment. Other
cards died
much earlier.

Interesting. :)

They are double the price of a standard sandisk and three times he
price of cheaper ones. I wouldn't use the sd
card in the raspberry to store big media anyway. The couple of bucks
more for a
32GB card don't hurt much (if they
are really that much more reliable).

I normally use a 32GB card anyway, and Sandisk has been the best I've used so far.

I would love to see a Pi with an M.2 though, which would give us the option for
much more reliable and faster
storage. I guess it's just a matter of time ... RockPi and others
already have it on board.

Yes, that would be nice, would be an ideal addition for a Pi.


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ATZ&L1&C!&D2

So why wouldn't you....

ATZ
AT&L1&C1&D2
ATW

Then all you need is ATZ to reset :)


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
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I would love to see a Pi with an M.2 though, which would give us the option for much more reliable and faster
storage. I guess it's just a matter of time ... RockPi and others
already have it on board.

I may be wrong...but I remember coming across a HAT which would add on the M.2 connector.

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Oli wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

I whish the RPi had a second sd card slot ;)

Oh, that would be awesome. RAIDed SD cards in a device that size would make for a killer home lab setup.


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Spectre wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

So why wouldn't you....

ATZ
AT&L1&C1&D2
ATW

Then all you need is ATZ to reset :)

I was younger then.


... Curious ideas wait for stranger times
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Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

I haven't bookmarked it and cannot find the link anymore, but IIRC some guy tested it for 6 month with 70 TB
written and it was still fine. Then he stopped the experiment. Other
cards died much earlier.

Enterprise class or consumer class? I had an enterprise SSD fail in a RAID
10 array after close to 3 years, I can't even fathom how much data had been written to it.


... Do you ever see inconsistencies in your world?
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Enterprise class or consumer class? I had an enterprise SSD fail in a
RAID 10 array after close to 3 years, I can't even fathom how much data
had been written to it.

I'm planning on using Samsung EVO 1TB SSDs in my RAID-5 setup for ESXi eventually. That is how it will be put together vs the 1TB spinning disks I use today.

I'll likely use two LUNs. One SSD for speed where needed and a spinning disk LUN for stuff that is more archive related. Eventually I'll only use spinning disks for archive stuff like TV shows and Movies.

- Mark
ÿÿÿ
--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (21:1/132.0)

Weatherman wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

Enterprise class or consumer class? I had an enterprise SSD fail in a
RAID 10 array after close to 3 years, I can't even fathom how much data had been written to it.

I'm planning on using Samsung EVO 1TB SSDs in my RAID-5 setup for ESXi eventually. That is how it will be put together vs the 1TB spinning
disks I use today.

Those are nice. I was debating what RAID format to use at work, I ended up settling on RAID 5 on my SSDs and RAID 10 on my SAS drives. I liked the idea of the speed boost with mirroring/striping.

At work, I inherited 2 2x16 core Xeon servers with 392 GB of RAM and 12
drive bays. Each was half 480 GB SSD and 1TB SAS drives. I took one, filled
it with all of the SSDs, took the other, filled it with all of the SAS
drives, and my utility VMs go onto the SAS datastores and the dev VMs go
onto the SSD one.

My next project is getting 10GBe running between then for a storage network. If I can get my VM count down, I might move to ROBO licensing for vSphere
and turn the SAS host into a NFS mount using FreeNAS or something similar.

It's nice to have someone else's hardware to play with... :)
--- SBBSecho 3.09-Win32
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At work, I inherited 2 2x16 core Xeon servers with 392 GB of RAM and 12 drive bays. Each was half 480 GB SSD and 1TB SAS drives. I took one,
filled it with all of the SSDs, took the other, filled it with all of the SAS drives, and my utility VMs go onto the SAS datastores and the dev VMs go onto the SSD one.

Nice! Mine are 300G RAM and 2x6 core Xeons - a total of (3) Supermicros that can hold up to (34) 3.5" drives. Will be using adapters to install some 2.5" SSDs that will likely be mirrored boot drives for them.

My next project is getting 10GBe running between then for a storage network. If I can get my VM count down, I might move to ROBO licensing
for vSphere and turn the SAS host into a NFS mount using FreeNAS or something similar.

I picked up some 10GBe fiber ethernet adapters for the Supermicros, too! Going
to run 10GBe for data and 10GBe for SAN (iSCSI). Using Cisco 3650 switches at
home using the SFP fiber interfaces for the servers.

- Mark
ÿÿÿ
--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (21:1/132.0)

Weatherman wrote to Poindexter Fortran <=-

I picked up some 10GBe fiber ethernet adapters for the Supermicros,
too! Going to run 10GBe for data and 10GBe for SAN (iSCSI). Using
Cisco 3650 switches at home using the SFP fiber interfaces

I have a meeting with the networking team next week, we have unused 10GBe on the switches and available 10GBe ports on my new servers, seems like a match made in heaven!

Right now, I'm trunking all traffic across 3 gigabit links, it'll be nice to build the next phase.



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I have a meeting with the networking team next week, we have unused 10GBe on the switches and available 10GBe ports on my new servers, seems like a match made in heaven!

Pretty logical solution right there. :)

I have been known to go crazy with uplinks when there is capacity. No one complains about having too much speed.

- Mark
ÿÿÿ
--- WWIVToss v.1.52
* Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (21:1/132.0)

I have been known to go crazy with uplinks when there is capacity. No
one complains about having too much speed.

With the older I get...I start thinking a 6502 chip is fast the slower I get. ;)

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On 02-12-20 23:01, Phoobar wrote to Weatherman <=-

I have been known to go crazy with uplinks when there is capacity. No
one complains about having too much speed.

With the older I get...I start thinking a 6502 chip is fast the slower
I get. ;)

Haha can't get too much speed, whether it's processing or metres/second! :D


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I have been known to go crazy with uplinks when there is capacity. No one complains about having too much speed.

Isn't that the truth. I'm going to break mine up a bit, I've got splodgy mix of Gb and Fast here, Fast is mostly client, while the servers have Gb ports. So
I'll bang the servers across a gb backbone of their own, and leave the fast side for client access.. So things like NFS mounts across servers ought to be significantly faster, not to mention getting video data off them.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)

With the older I get...I start thinking a 6502 chip is fast the slower I get. ;)

T is nothing wrong with a 6502... back at one of those club meetings, this guy was really excited, he'd bought a 6502 rated to 2Mhz he thought it wasa going to make his Apple II run faster :) This was one of the didn't get crowd...didn't matter how you tried to explain it.

Spec


*** THE READER V4.50 [freeware]
--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: Scrawled in haste at The Lower Planes (21:3/101)

Spectre wrote to Weatherman <=-

I'll bang the servers across a gb backbone of their own, and leave the fast side for client access.. So things like NFS mounts across servers ought to be significantly faster, not to mention getting video data off

My end game is to reduce my VM footprint and use one of the servers I have loaded with big spinning drives to be a NFS mount for the other ESX servers.
I figure 10BGe would be perfect for a storage network and a network for
VMWare to do its thing separate from the clients.


... Are there sections? Consider transitions
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Spectre wrote to Phoobar <=-

T is nothing wrong with a 6502... back at one of those club
meetings, this guy was really excited, he'd bought a 6502 rated to 2Mhz
he thought it wasa going to make his Apple II run faster :) This was
one of the didn't get crowd...didn't matter how you tried to explain
it.

Before I knew it wouldn't work, I upgraded my 6 mhz AT by buying a 12 megahertz chip and a 24 mhz crystal, desoldered the old 12 mhz crystal, soldered in the new crystal and miraculously it worked.

Beginners Luck.


... Are there sections? Consider transitions
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With the older I get...I start thinking a 6502 chip is fast the slowe I get. ;)

Haha can't get too much speed, whether it's processing or metres/second!

Reminds me of that Star Trek TOS episode where they drank the water & they
got sped up to a crazy amount. Even though death doesn't bother me...a matter of seconds it would happen would. ;)

ACME BBS-Member of fsxNet/WWIVNet/SciNet/SpookNet/FidoNet/MicroNet.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/09 (Windows/32)
* Origin: ACME BBS-I taut I taw a puddy tat! (21:2/147)

T is nothing wrong with a 6502... back at one of those club
meetings, this guy was really excited, he'd bought a 6502 rated to 2Mhz
he thought it wasa going to make his Apple II run faster :) This was one of the didn't get crowd...didn't matter how you tried to explain it.

Very nice. ;) The funniest part for me when I found out the old Apple's used that chip was how much money they were feeding to Commodore. Now...I can run
a ton of that software in RetroPie & it flies...especially Acid Trip. Used to waste so much time in the computer labs in college playing that.

ACME BBS-Member of fsxNet/WWIVNet/SciNet/SpookNet/FidoNet/MicroNet.

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Before I knew it wouldn't work, I upgraded my 6 mhz AT by buying
a 12 megahertz chip and a 24 mhz crystal, desoldered the old 12 mhz crystal, soldered in the new crystal and miraculously it worked.

Thats pretty much your original overclocking right there. I tried that on a few 286's even with passive heat sinks. But never got very far, only managed about 23Mhz hardly worth it. But the Apple Loon wouldn't realise that just because the parts rated for 2Mhz the II is only going to drive it at 1Mhz. Unfortunately you can't just overclock a II or the video and bus go screwy.

Spec


--- SuperBBS v1.17-3 (Eval)
* Origin: < Scrawled in blood at The Lower Planes > (21:3/101)

On 02-13-20 12:04, Phoobar wrote to Vk3jed <=-

With the older I get...I start thinking a 6502 chip is fast the slowe I get. ;)

Haha can't get too much speed, whether it's processing or metres/second!

Reminds me of that Star Trek TOS episode where they drank the water &
they got sped up to a crazy amount. Even though death doesn't bother me...a matter of seconds it would happen would. ;)

Yeah I remember that episode. :)


... If it walks out of your refrigerator, let it go.
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Reminds me of that Star Trek TOS episode where they drank the water & they got sped up to a crazy amount. Even though death doesn't bother me...a matter of seconds it would happen would. ;)

Yeah I remember that episode. :)

Sounds almost like a buzz in my ear. ;)

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On 02-14-20 22:35, Phoobar wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Reminds me of that Star Trek TOS episode where they drank the water & they got sped up to a crazy amount. Even though death doesn't bother me...a matter of seconds it would happen would. ;)

Yeah I remember that episode. :)

Sounds almost like a buzz in my ear. ;)

Is that me buzzing past? :D


... Die, my dear doctor? That's the last thing I shall do.
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Isn't that the truth. I'm going to break mine up a bit, I've got splodgy
mix of Gb and Fast here, Fast is mostly client, while the servers have Gb ports. So
I'll bang the servers across a gb backbone of their own, and leave the
fast side for client access.. So things like NFS mounts across servers
ought to be significantly faster, not to mention getting video data off them.

Back around the 2016 timeframe, I re-designed one of our data centers to have redundant 80G connectivity on the backbone with 10G access ports. It was put in place for the dense systems like UCS chassis.

Still have lots of 1G uplinks out there, but eventually hope to get the to 10G minimum.

- Mark
ÿÿÿ
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My end game is to reduce my VM footprint and use one of the servers I
have loaded with big spinning drives to be a NFS mount for the other ESX servers. I figure 10BGe would be perfect for a storage network and a network for VMWare to do its thing separate from the clients.

My design at home is basically to keep (3) large servers. (2) for ESXi (one powered off to save electricity), and (1) for my data/SAN.

That is pretty much how I run things today, just want to move up to higher capactity servers. Especially in the storage catagory. I can't wait to use my
servers that support 3.5" hot pluggable drives.

- Mark
ÿÿÿ
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Reminds me of that Star Trek TOS episode where they drank the wa they got sped up to a crazy amount. Even though death doesn't bo

Sounds almost like a buzz in my ear. ;)

Just me with my 3 phase electric fly swatter.

Years ago...used to own one of those. Found out the circuitry would handle 9 volts...rather than the 3 is was supposed to go through it. Instead of
stunning the fly...you proved that you can indeed destroy matter & hope it's fly wife had the insurance policy paid up because of no body to show her.

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On 02-15-20 23:53, Phoobar wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Just me with my 3 phase electric fly swatter.

Hahaha :D

Years ago...used to own one of those. Found out the circuitry would
handle 9 volts...rather than the 3 is was supposed to go through it. Instead of stunning the fly...you proved that you can indeed destroy matter & hope it's fly wife had the insurance policy paid up because of
no body to show her.

Never seen those, so you vaporised flies. :D


... !Who! wal!ked acc!ross this ta!glin!e wit!h muddy fee!t!!
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Years ago...used to own one of those. Found out the circuitry would handle 9 volts...rather than the 3 is was supposed to go through it.

Never seen those, so you vaporised flies. :D

Just kept it at 3 V...so it would stun them & make them look like they were drunk. This link is short enough that you can see what it is:

https://www.harborfreight.com/electronic-fly-insect-swatter-62540.html

On the other hand...out in rural Oklahoma & in the Bible Noose of the
American South...the big daddy of this was entertainment watching the bugs
die when they did get vaporized. Don't have the big daddy model...but I do
have some of these when the bugs get back inside every year. Works great!

https://tinyurl.com/r6c8faw

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