Hey there :)

It seems to be the popular thing around BBSing to be condesending and negative.

I personally don't think that way of most folks who I see posting in BBS
echos.

Yes there are some who come over as having a chip on their shoulder about x
or y but I'm kinda glass half full as I have met too many good souls over the years (do I sound kinda old timer like here? :)) to feel this form of communication is a lost cause.

I guess too because I like the fact that folks posting in this medium for the most part share common or overlapping interests and posting in places like
this it take a modicum of effort to get on to echonet and BBS networks vs installing an app onto a mobile phone etc.

FSXnet came about when there were already general nets that were "dead" and it's become very popular.

As the one who started it I can certainly talk to this. I set it up because I was interested in learning how it was done, so the intent from the get go was to be experimental in learning (for me in the first instance) how to do it, keeping it simple speaks to Nigel's (and the wider groups discussions) on the pros and cons of how many networks or echos does a FTN network need.

I wasn't looking to build a huge networks but to be fair did set some early goals I think of 50 nodes and the revised that to 100 or more as I started to see folks join up.

Echomail area wise I started fsxNet with one echo and that was how it was for ages... and I think that worked well for quite a long time until it didn't :)

To be fair there were at the time a lot of Mystic BBS questions going on so the Mystic echo spun up and then I think it was your Magica echo (was that right??) etc. and for a long time I didn't really want to grow the echomail areas too much for fear of diluting down the volumes of traffic in the established few echos. I really should re-read my notes in history.txt

More recently (May 2021) I added 12 further echos after soliciting community views, attempting to offer some additional broader places to chat on fairly widely distributed topics/subjects. Doing that for me was an uncomfortable experiment as I worried (and still do a bit) about the merits of creating more spaces for chat and lowering the volumes of chatter across the other echos already in play.

What's been interesting has been to see which ones have had some activity and which have had less. Some topics have engendered more talk than others... the difficulty for me then becomes do we keep a low volume traffic echo or de-list it and look to merge some topics into other established echos? I over think this stuff :) Head hurts :)

and it's become very popular. It just depends how much effort one is willing to put into their net, the energy they put out either will
attract others or wont.

Being responsive and helpful is certainly part of it, I guess perceptions
about how the network is seen is also a good chunk of it, there are nodes connected here that started with the network years ago now but I would be
hard pressed to see some of those sysops active in these echos as they have moved their banter to othernets they joined up later and found a better space/place that met their needs.

So yeah, that's life and I get that and all but I am always interested too to note that despite that lack of personal involvement in this network those BBS remain connected and taking a feed of it.. my summation is it can't be that bad here or at least the banter taking place must been seen as having some value to those running a BBS that are fine to carry the echos available in fsx.

To be honest, the negativity in bbsing is more likely to drive people
away from the hobby, than keep everyone in existing nets or something. I've been at the point the last few weeks, where I'm considering just turning everything off and washing my hands of it all. The only thing
that stops me is the handful of friends I've made here, and I'd feel like I was letting down people who use my software.

I'd be sorry to see you go. You've certainly made your mark on the scene with your coding/dev skills and the contributions you have made to the scene with the software you have been amazing, well received and appreciated by so many. So yeah, if you're feeling bummed at the moment I'd vote for taking a break but hopefully circling back if/when you feel moderately interested in the stuff again. That's kinda been my own experience where energy levels ebb and I back off / dial it down for a bit and get excited about stuff again... I wonder if that is something others reading this share too?

Anyway, good luck to mickey with his blues net.

Same from me, if he wants to have a crack at running / learning this stuff, best wishes to him :).

I do agree that a multitude of networks and echos will/can dilute the overall volumes of chatter in said networks and echomail areas.

I think this is largely because the overall user base (the sysops who spin up a BBS and post in echomail) are a relatively small group that converse across a number of networks and echos... and that's fine, but yeah if you have only X number of active folks and they are posting/hanging in A - Z nets and echos.. it spreads things out rather widely.

Hmm... that was a bit of a waffle and long winded response, sorry about that! :)

Best, Paul

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On Wed Jan 19 22:21:00 2022, Avon wrote to apam <=-

Hey there :)

Hi

Anyway, good luck to mickey with his blues net.

Same from me, if he wants to have a crack at running / learning this stuff, best wishes to him :).

I do agree that a multitude of networks and echos will/can dilute the overall
volumes of chatter in said networks and echomail areas.

Maybe. I don't think it's that simple though. I would say, dead nets are dead nets because no one posts in them. People don't post because people don't post, most people aren't conversation starters, especially if you don't know if there is anyone listening. So you need a conversation starter, and if the network coordinator isn't interested in starting conversations, then it's dead from the get go.

So, lets say you want to start a niche net, like Mickey for example making a net for musicians. Assuming mickey likes talking about music, and assuming there are other interested musicians who also use BBSes, it could work.

Will it mean less chat on fsxnet, or dove net or network x? Maybe, but there isn't much musician chat here anyway, and what about musicisans who talk about other things, chances are if they're on BBSes they're signed up to popular networks that interest them. If conversations are started on network x, then they will likely chat on network x, if conversation starts on music net, then likely it will continue there.

I don't think that concentrating everyone into a single net is always a good thing. People clash. Some like spaces away from others with a smaller group of people with seperate interests. Just because they like those spaces doesn't mean they wont participate in other spaces. I think it's possible that having seperate nets could even encourage more conversation overall because it is more intimate.

Anyway, it's not for me, or anyone really to dictate whether or not to start up a net. It kind of reminds me of people telling developers what to work on in their spare time, if you want to make the 999999 millionth arch linux derived distribution, who am I to say there's too many already and it will dilute the userbase. After all, if it's any good, people will use it, if it's not, it will likely dissappear later on when interest is lost.

The other thing about dead nets, is how exactly do you define a dead net? How do you define success. The first thing that comes to mind, is a healthy flow of conversation. Is that lots of conversation, or some conversation that is worth while. (and what is worth while and what is not) all of these things mean different things to different people.

SO yeah, I say if people want to start a net, go for it. While I understand yours and nigel's point of view, I don't think it's really a problem, the bbs community is bigger than one network.

Andrew

=== TitanMail/linux v1.0.9


--- Talisman v0.34-dev (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happylandbbs.com:11892/ (21:1/182)

On 19 Jan 2022, apam said the following...

So, lets say you want to start a niche net, like Mickey for example
making a net for musicians. Assuming mickey likes talking about music,
and assuming there are other interested musicians who also use BBSes, it could work.

Your a good soul Andrew. This Bluesnet thing already exists on the internet in other places. It's very active because we're dedicated to our trade. Music has done me well. I thought that the people in this medium might be interested, but I'm starting to think that leaving things as is, might be what many want. I'm already being told to 'get lost' for trying something new, and disagreeing with some unknown person with a less than average life accomplishment. I've got better things to do with my life.

Mick Manning
-(< BluesNET - The Musician's Network >)-

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Central Ontario BluesNET (21:1/156)

Your a good soul Andrew. This Bluesnet thing already exists on the internet in other places. It's very active because we're dedicated to
our trade. Music has done me well. I thought that the people in this medium might be interested, but I'm starting to think that leaving
things as is, might be what many want. I'm already being told to 'get lost' for trying something new, and disagreeing with some unknown person with a less than average life accomplishment. I've got better things to
do with my life.

It's a shame you've been discouraged Mickey, because these sound like the
very reasons you should pursue such a project. I'd love to dabble in the whole FTN thing, but neither time nor patience is on my side at this point; I don't tend to stray far from familiar territory these days.

It's always a shame when someone allows another's ignorance to stand in the
way of knowledge.

o-----------o------------o-------------------------o
TALIADON | 2:250/6 | 21:3/138 | TALIADON-BBS@MAIL.COM | o-----------o-----------o------------o-------------------------o
| "Error is a great teacher, and humility its hardest lesson." | o--------------------------------------------------------------o

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: TALIADON BBS (21:3/138)

already being told to 'get lost' for trying something new, and disagreeing some unknown person with a less than average life accomplishment. I've got better things to do with my life.

Is this necessary? I though we were past this by now..

I was pretty neutral on all of this. But you just went -1 here ^^.

Congratulations?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TheForze - bbs.opicron.eu:23 (21:3/126)

On 19 Jan 2022, TALIADON said the following...

It's always a shame when someone allows another's ignorance to stand in the way of knowledge.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I appreciate it. :-)

Mick Manning
-(< BluesNET - The Musician's Network >)-

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
* Origin: Central Ontario BluesNET (21:1/156)

Re: Re: Vibes
By: opicron to Mickey on Wed Jan 19 2022 06:48 pm

already being told to 'get lost' for trying something new, and disagree some unknown person with a less than average life accomplishment. I've better things to do with my life.

Is this necessary? I though we were past this by now..

I was pretty neutral on all of this. But you just went -1 here ^^.

Congratulations?

There is a lot of merit in knowing when to quit.

Facebook motivational crap is overloaded with "Never quit, pursue your dreams" manure, but some projects are not worth pursuing uunless you start with a respectable ammount of support from the get go. There are few things as bad in life as pouring a ton of effort into an operation only to discover not a single soul other than you cares for it, specially if it is an operation which needs the interest of others by its very own nature.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

There is a lot of merit in knowing when to quit.

Facebook motivational crap is overloaded with "Never quit, pursue your dreams" manure, but some projects are not worth pursuing uunless you
start with a respectable ammount of support from the get go. There are
few things as bad in life as pouring a ton of effort into an operation only to discover not a single soul other than you cares for it,
specially if it is an operation which needs the interest of others by
its very own nature.

I would say there is a lot of merit in knowing what it truly is that you actually want to achieve. I find a lot of people wrapped up in projects, but not exactly sure what it is they want to achieve.

What is the goal? What does success look like? Then from there, you can work out what you need to do. Some things aren't worth doing, or won't achieve what it is you actually want to achieve. It isn't "negative" to warn people that they may be wasting their valuable time.

If everyone was positive about everything, it would be hell on Earth.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

some unknown person with a less than average life accomplishment.

I was pretty neutral on all of this. But you just went -1 here ^^.

There is a lot of merit in knowing when to quit.

Nicely put and applies nicely to two factors here ^^.

I should have quit working on my vBase and rJam doors long time ago. But it
is a hobby and I love it for my board. Even implemented dynamic loading into rJam to cope with my large message bases.

Even when nobody will use it at least I liked spending time on it =).

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: TheForze - bbs.opicron.eu:23 (21:3/126)

Re: Re: Vibes
By: opicron to Arelor on Fri Jan 21 2022 07:56 am

Even when nobody will use it at least I liked spending time on it =).

Well, if it feels like a success, it is a success, at least in hobbyland.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On 19 Jan 2022 at 08:16p, apam pondered and said...

I do agree that a multitude of networks and echos will/can dilute the overall
volumes of chatter in said networks and echomail areas.

Maybe. I don't think it's that simple though. I would say, dead nets are dead nets because no one posts in them. People don't post because people don't post, most people aren't conversation starters, especially if you don't know if there is anyone listening. So you need a conversation starter, and if the network coordinator isn't interested in starting conversations, then it's dead from the get go.

I agree dead nets are dead if no one posts, I don't agree that people don't post because they don't post... I don't quite get that, people may not post for a bunch of reasons, and I wish I knew them all. I do agree some folks are more chatty and likely to post than others while some just lurk and read etc.

It is interesting to watch a 'dead' echo burst to life when someone posts and others chime in with 'got you here' etc. It's like a high school reunion the frenzy of it all... but often seems to end just as quick, much like a high school reunion too.

So, lets say you want to start a niche net, like Mickey for example
making a net for musicians. Assuming mickey likes talking about music,
and assuming there are other interested musicians who also use BBSes, it could work.

I agree.

Will it mean less chat on fsxnet, or dove net or network x? Maybe, but there isn't much musician chat here anyway, and what about musicisans
who talk about other things, chances are if they're on BBSes they're signed up to popular networks that interest them. If conversations are started on network x, then they will likely chat on network x, if conversation starts on music net, then likely it will continue there.

Will it mean less chat on fsxnet, or dove net or network x? Maybe, but there isn't much musician chat here anyway, and what about musicisans
who talk about other things, chances are if they're on BBSes they're signed up to popular networks that interest them. If conversations are

I observe conversations do flow between networks and have read as such
when posters refer to a conversation started on network X about subject Y and then it continues or evolves elsewhere on another network echomail area. I have no problem with any of that, seems normal and reasonable to me. It does highlight the rather small pool of posters/active users of echomail regardless of network.

Networks with very specific focus may well do better (or perhaps worse?) than others with broader subject matter... I think it all comes down to how passionate the people who choose to post in echomail are about a given subject/topic. If a network finds success because it offers an appealing mix of areas on subjects etc. that active posters engage with, good for it I'd say :)

I don't think that concentrating everyone into a single net is always a good thing. People clash. Some like spaces away from others with a
smaller group of people with seperate interests. Just because they like those spaces doesn't mean they wont participate in other spaces. I think it's possible that having seperate nets could even encourage more conversation overall because it is more intimate.

People clash irrespective of the number of networks, one might argue even if there was one network only it could try to take steps to mitigate such clashes by offering more echomail areas for people to post in.

But I don't think that this idea is a starter for 10... an echomail area (regardless of network) is just a few keyboard presses away from another one, and conflict between posters often comes down to their behavior in written text, whatever misunderstandings are inferred during an exchange, and the community / network op feedback on such behavior as to how they feel about / accept or reject it.

I'm not saying I'm against othernets per se, but I do think in general less is more when the overall user base is not really that huge.

Would I like BBSing activity to grow in 2022? You bet. Will it, I hope so. If it does I'm sure othernets may continue to spring up, perhaps do well and/or disappear.

I started one up because I wanted to learn about such things. I didn't plan for the numbers who came on board but was gratified by those who did. It does take effort and work to support such things. I think if I and others involved in the scene were not as active then perhaps this network may have long since died a death? I'm not sure, but I'm glad it has not.

I think I need some food, chips are calling my name... perhaps beer too... mmmm

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On Sun Jan 23 16:43:00 2022, Avon wrote to apam <=-

I agree dead nets are dead if no one posts, I don't agree that people don't post because they don't post... I don't quite get that, people may not post for a bunch of reasons, and I wish I knew them all. I do agree some folks are more chatty and likely to post than others while some just lurk and read etc.

What I mean is if no one posts anything then not many other people are likely to post. I should have perhaps written, people don't post because other people don't post.

Most people in this hobby aren't conversation starters.

It is interesting to watch a 'dead' echo burst to life when someone posts and others chime in with 'got you here' etc. It's like a high school reunion the frenzy of it all... but often seems to end just as quick, much like a high school reunion too.

Yes, because there is no conversation, no one determined enough to grow the net by starting (and continuing) to grow the net.

If you weren't such an outgoing person, fsxnet would likely have become another dead net too, but you put the effort in, and I think anyone with the same drive could do that.

People clash irrespective of the number of networks, one might argue even if there was one network only it could try to take steps to mitigate such clashes by offering more echomail areas for people to post in.

But I don't think that this idea is a starter for 10... an echomail area (regardless of network) is just a few keyboard presses away from another one, and conflict between posters often comes down to their behavior in written text, whatever misunderstandings are inferred during an exchange, and the community / network op feedback on such behavior as to how they feel about / accept or reject it.

You're assuming all networks are open for anyone to join and that moderation is the same. Smaller more tight knit groups may be less likley to clash, especially with access restrictions. People can be a part of the greater community by being on a more open and public net, but also have the intamcy of a smaller more private net.

I'm not saying I'm against othernets per se, but I do think in general less is more when the overall user base is not really that huge.

Perhaps, if we're talking about several identical networks with the same goals.

The same could be said with BBSes. Everyone wants to run a BBS, but barely anyone uses them, yet we encourage, help people set up BBSes, you've even made some nice videos - why not nets? Nets could carry shared echo bases, much like the HAM fsxnet <-> vkradio, everyone would be able to have a go at setting things up. Sure it would be a bit more complex, and it would look different than things look now. Perhaps it would then be more decentralized, but it would be more people at the helm.

> I started one up because I wanted to learn about such things. I didn't plan for the numbers who came on board but was gratified by those who did. It does take effort and work to support such things. I think if I and others involved in the scene were not as active then perhaps this network may have long since died a death? I'm not sure, but I'm glad it has not.

Lots of people share that interest, and share that desire to tinker. Heck I would say most people here do, if not they probably wouldn't be here. I don't think it's right though to put them off having a go (I'm refering to the inflated ego type posts, not yours in particular). Perhaps better to make them aware that it's a lot of work to make a successful net, but wish them well in there tinkering.

(successful net is kind of subjective - I would say happynet is a successful net, though many would probably call it a dead net. There is only a handful of us and much of the time we talk on other nets, but conversations do happen from time to time)

Andrew


=== TitanMail/linux v1.0.9


--- Talisman v0.34-dev (Linux/x86_64)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happylandbbs.com:11892/ (21:1/182)

I observe conversations do flow between networks and have read as such when posters refer to a conversation started on network X about subject
Y and then it continues or evolves elsewhere on another network echomail area. I have no problem with any of that, seems normal and reasonable to me. It does highlight the rather small pool of posters/active users of echomail regardless of network.

I have remarked that there are almost as many BBS users as there are BBS's. On the Echos, it seems to me (and I may be wrong), that most of the people
are Sysops posting from their own BBS, and I see familiar names between the 'nets.

Fragmentation is a problem though, and coming here as a user, not a Sysop or "hobbyist", I view additional 'nets as a headache, and bad for users. One
then has to jump between different networks to communicate with other BBS users, and these networks are not necessarily available on the one BBS.

I'm not saying I'm against othernets per se, but I do think in general less is more when the overall user base is not really that huge.

Would I like BBSing activity to grow in 2022? You bet. Will it, I hope
so. If it does I'm sure othernets may continue to spring up, perhaps do well and/or disappear.

I very much would like people to consider BBS's as an option when it comes to maintaining an online community and keeping in touch. Although the interface
issues may be insurmountable, there are distinct advantages that few other platforms provide.

I started one up because I wanted to learn about such things. I didn't plan for the numbers who came on board but was gratified by those who
did. It does take effort and work to support such things. I think if I
and others involved in the scene were not as active then perhaps this network may have long since died a death? I'm not sure, but I'm glad it has not.

I'm here because this is where the people are, and because I used fsxNet myself as a test when trying out my own Mystic BBS.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Hello boraxman!

** On Monday 24.01.22 - 18:16, boraxman wrote to Avon:

Fragmentation is a problem though, and coming here as a
user, not a Sysop or "hobbyist", I view additional 'nets as
a headache, and bad for users. One then has to jump between
different networks to communicate with other BBS users, and
these networks are not necessarily available on the one
BBS.

As a user, try something like OpenXP. You can navigate between
nets as if it is one big comm channel. ;)


--
../|ug

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: 6 Days, 21 Hours, 54 Minutes, 40 Seconds (21:4/106.21)

On 24 Jan 2022 at 06:16p, boraxman pondered and said...

I very much would like people to consider BBS's as an option when it
comes to maintaining an online community and keeping in touch. Although the interface issues may be insurmountable, there are distinct
advantages that few other platforms provide.

I'm genuinely curious: what do you see the advantages being?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

As a user, try something like OpenXP. You can navigate between
nets as if it is one big comm channel. ;)

Does that work like MultiMail? I do use Multimail with another BBS, but that BBS doesn't have fsxNet.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

I'm genuinely curious: what do you see the advantages being?

The disadvantages are obvious and perhaps outweight the advantages, but for me, the advantages are

1) Easy to deploy on low end hardware. My experience is with Mystic, which
was easy to set up. Synchronet was harder, but Matrix isn't easy either.

2) Clients are simple, in the sense that they don't need to be updated to accommodate server side changes. The user is using a thin client. The communication protocol is straightforward telnet or SSH. Low barrier to creating alternative clients.

3) Extensible through door programs. Low barrier to creating such extensions.

4) No third party at all. It is a direct connection from the remote machine to yours. It is totally in your control. This isn't unique, but an advantage. No one needs to even know it exists.

5) Persistent messaging and chat and file repository and bulletins on one place.

6) You can customize the look, leading to a shared experience which is unique.

These aren't necessarily exclusive advantages, or ones most people care for. I'm very much in support of a peer-to-peer, open Internet, instead of the current model, where we only use the Internet to walk to walled gardens. The internet should have been like the phone system, a system where we are all with our unique phone numbers (IP addresses), and our computers can dial into each other to get information we want to make selectively public.

... What hair color do they put on the driver's licenses of bald men?

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 25 Jan 2022 at 11:00p, boraxman pondered and said...

The disadvantages are obvious and perhaps outweight the advantages, but for me, the advantages are

This is an interesting perspective; thank you for sharing. I
have a slight quibble I hope you'll consider.

1) Easy to deploy on low end hardware. My experience is with Mystic, which was easy to set up. Synchronet was harder, but Matrix isn't easy either.

True, though I would perhaps separate the ability to run well on
low-end hardware from how easy something is to set up and configure.
Mystic may well run on something as anemic as a Raspberry Pi 1, but
you've already got Linux on that machine and it has essentially all
of the same properties you listed. Similarly, a Matrix server may
run on low-end hardware acceptably well, even if it is admittedly
harder to configure. Something like Discourse seems is really very
nice, but requires rather a lot of work and may require a beefier
host system.

2) Clients are simple, in the sense that they don't need to be updated to accommodate server side changes. The user is using a thin client. The communication protocol is straightforward telnet or SSH. Low barrier to creating alternative clients.

Funny, I actually see this as being a rather high barrier. Web
browsers are ubiquitous; SSH clients less so, and telnet is fading
into ever-greater obscurity.

4) No third party at all. It is a direct connection from the remote machine to yours. It is totally in your control. This isn't unique,
but an advantage. No one needs to even know it exists.

This I somewhat disagree with: you have your ISP connection, rely
on third-party DNS servers, etc. This was true in the dialup days
as well, except then the third party was the telephone utility.

Again, thanks for the interesting perspective.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

True, though I would perhaps separate the ability to run well on
low-end hardware from how easy something is to set up and configure. Mystic may well run on something as anemic as a Raspberry Pi 1, but
you've already got Linux on that machine and it has essentially all
of the same properties you listed. Similarly, a Matrix server may
run on low-end hardware acceptably well, even if it is admittedly
harder to configure. Something like Discourse seems is really very
nice, but requires rather a lot of work and may require a beefier
host system.

I'm getting ahead of myself and thinking of a "solution in a box" that people could use. Its just now ideas I like, but you could sell a consumer product, which is a box you plug into a router via a network cable, and you have your own social space set up. A raspberry pi in a case with an SD card with Raspbian preloaded and configured. Simple web interface to configure some details, and you're good to go.

Funny, I actually see this as being a rather high barrier. Web
browsers are ubiquitous; SSH clients less so, and telnet is fading
into ever-greater obscurity.

I was thinking in terms of making new clients. I utterly hate web apps, and despite their ease of use, I'd rather go without as a matter of principle.

The ubiquity of web apps has actually meant that a few players now dominate the web and can shape it because there is only, what Chrome and Mozilla as browser engines now?

This I somewhat disagree with: you have your ISP connection, rely
on third-party DNS servers, etc. This was true in the dialup days
as well, except then the third party was the telephone utility.

Again, thanks for the interesting perspective.

Of course, its not as direct as it was. But it is comparatively more so than using centralised Silicon Valley services, and it does make a difference. If Twitter bans you, you're disconnected. You can leave your ISP, move to another, and keep the same connectivity. Most ISP's in Australia are "hands off".

I dislike intensely the growing notion that Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/WhatsApp *IS* the Internet.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 01-26-22 13:29, boraxman wrote to tenser <=-

I was thinking in terms of making new clients. I utterly hate web
apps, and despite their ease of use, I'd rather go without as a matter
of principle.

I hate a lot of web apps. They work, but there's always something a little "clunky" about using them, whether that be navigation or some other aspect. Even more so for apps that require notifications. Web notifications seem a bit less flexible than app specific ones.

And of course, a modern web browser is a very heavyweight client, and I often find web performance is sluggish. While they look similar, I find using the dedicated Element client for Matrix much faster and smoother in general than the web based Element.

And some web interfaces are getting unusable *cough* Facebook *cough*, because they're too bloated and sluggish. ;)

Of course, its not as direct as it was. But it is comparatively more
so than using centralised Silicon Valley services, and it does make a difference. If Twitter bans you, you're disconnected. You can leave
your ISP, move to another, and keep the same connectivity. Most ISP's
in Australia are "hands off".

We seem to have more flexibility in .au than most parts of the world, thanks to NBN being the primary means of physical access, and the ability to choose what ISP to use over NBN.

I dislike intensely the growing notion that Facebook/Instragram/Twitter/WhatsApp *IS* the Internet.

No argument from me there. Internet for me is the global IP connectivity - there's really two Internets for many of us, the IPv4 (legacy) and IPv6 (new) Internet, but modern OSs with a dual stack setup make them appear as one to the end user.


... I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem.
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I hate a lot of web apps. They work, but there's always something a little "clunky" about using them, whether that be navigation or some
other aspect. Even more so for apps that require notifications. Web notifications seem a bit less flexible than app specific ones.

It is the icons that you can't figure out what they do, the small fidgety widgets, the small text boxes you get to enter text, without any of the niceties that Emacs of Vim gives you, clutter, latency. Another annoying trend is having poor distinction between clickable and non clickable elements, constantly changing UI paradigms based on the latest brain fart from silicon valley.

And of course, a modern web browser is a very heavyweight client, and I often find web performance is sluggish. While they look similar, I find using the dedicated Element client for Matrix much faster and smoother
in general than the web based Element.

And some web interfaces are getting unusable *cough* Facebook *cough*, because they're too bloated and sluggish. ;)

Try m.facebook.com on desktop, if you want a faster experience, if you use it that is. It is the mobile site, but you can load it on desktop and it does run much, much faster.

Using web browsers to transmit apps over the internet is like using circus elephants to send mail.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Vk3jed wrote (2022-01-27):

We seem to have more flexibility in .au than most parts of the world, thanks to NBN being the primary means of physical access, and the ability to choose what ISP to use over NBN.

Interesting, I had to look it up on Wikipedia. A$51 billion is quite acceptable. In 2000 mobile network operators paid 50€ million for UMTS licenses. That is just for the right to use certain frequencies and to build the infrastructure at their own cost. UMTS (3G) has been turned off recently ...

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* Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)

On 01-27-22 22:17, boraxman wrote to Vk3jed <=-

It is the icons that you can't figure out what they do, the small
fidgety widgets, the small text boxes you get to enter text, without
any of the niceties that Emacs of Vim gives you, clutter, latency.
Another annoying trend is having poor distinction between clickable and non clickable elements, constantly changing UI paradigms based on the latest brain fart from silicon valley.

I can cope with the more cosmetic aspects, but I find the clickety click navigation of forums to be particularly annoying. And most, being on the other side of the planet", are compounded by latency and the chatty nature of HTTP.

Try m.facebook.com on desktop, if you want a faster experience, if you
use it that is. It is the mobile site, but you can load it on desktop
and it does run much, much faster.

I don't like the mobuile web site. Lacks functionality that I use, even on mobiles. The app leaves it for dead.

Using web browsers to transmit apps over the internet is like using
circus elephants to send mail.

I like that comparison. :D


... Then the manure hit the rotary air displacement unit.
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On 01-27-22 12:46, Oli wrote to Vk3jed <=-

Interesting, I had to look it up on Wikipedia. A$51 billion is quite acceptable. In 2000 mobile network operators paid 50¨ million for UMTS

Yeah I saw it as an investment. Unfortunately, a change of government meant the original FTTP design was downgraded, and we ended up with VDSL here, which is OK, but has some issues. But new installations like the house we're building are to be FTTP, from what I understand.

licenses. That is just for the right to use certain frequencies and to build the infrastructure at their own cost. UMTS (3G) has been turned
off recently ...

I can't remember what the spectrum licences here for mobile carriers were here.


... The past should be a mental springboard - not a hammock.
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