Hello.

How goes it? I've had some beer, can you tell?

I haven't posted here in a little while, so thought I might.

I've been hard at work watching compiler messages zoom by my terminal.
Well it's not so much with the zooming at the moment, as it's slowed down
a bit (probably compiling llvm)

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no? Why would I do that?

I guess to learn more, experiment, see what I can break.

I started off thinking I'd do something like TrueOS, with the os core
packages, but that didn't work out so much. it buggers up the usual tools.

Anyway, I'm currently right back at a fresh FreeBSD 13 tree, and am
grafting runit into it. The plan is to replace init / rc with runit.

Which is probably crazy because the amount of fixes I had to make in
runit to get it to compile without warnings is insane. Pretty old / poor
code. I fit right in!

So, why would this interest you? It probably doesn't. Mystic BBS isn't
compiled for FreeBSD ... :(

Talisman does compile on FreeBSD! but needs /proc mounted!

In other news, Talisman is stalled a bit. Mostly because loading up the
Win 10 vm is a pain. That and I can't seem to make postie crash the way
shawn does. This bothers me. Until I can figure out how to fix what I've
got, it will be a while before I add more.

Not that you can't run a perfectly fine BBS with it the way it is, I'd
like to add more to the lua scripting, but until anyone wants to use it,
i'm just stabbing in the dark trying to figure out what people want.

Well I'm outta beer. Have fun with the bbsing!

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.10-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/182)

On 24 Jan 2021 at 05:41p, apam pondered and said...

Hello.
How goes it? I've had some beer, can you tell?

Not yet :)

I haven't posted here in a little while, so thought I might.

Nice to see you here. Yeah I have been a bit on/off also as of late, perhaps more on? :) I don't know. I'm bashing away at my Linux box aka Fido hub to be and trying to sort out a Linux version of the FTN<>NNTP gateway software I
run for 3:770/3 .. that has been proving to be anything but smooth so far..
but I am learning about a ton of seemingly unkept and rather defunct past versions of gateway software at present :)

I've been hard at work watching compiler messages zoom by my terminal. Well it's not so much with the zooming at the moment, as it's slowed down a bit (probably compiling llvm)

Screen cap some, then you can make a video with it playing in the
background... and pretend you're in the Matrix :) Greetings Mr Anderson...
Hmm perhaps I should be having a beer?

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no? Why would I do that?
I guess to learn more, experiment, see what I can break.
I started off thinking I'd do something like TrueOS, with the os core packages, but that didn't work out so much. it buggers up the usual
tools.

I know little of this stuff but it sounds experimental so well done!

Talisman does compile on FreeBSD! but needs /proc mounted!

Nice :)

In other news, Talisman is stalled a bit. Mostly because loading up the Win 10 vm is a pain. That and I can't seem to make postie crash the way shawn does. This bothers me. Until I can figure out how to fix what I've got, it will be a while before I add more.

I hope to play with Talisman in the coming months once I migrate things to Linux.. it's a slow process for me but I am make steady steps :)

Well I'm outta beer. Have fun with the bbsing!

I'll post you one, but it may be warm when it gets there!

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

apam wrote (2021-01-24):

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no? Why would I do that?

lifetime project :). Matt Dillon has been working now for 18 years on his FreeBSD fork.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040711014738/http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2004/07/08/dragonfly_bsd_interview.html

Anyway, I'm currently right back at a fresh FreeBSD 13 tree, and am grafting runit into it. The plan is to replace init / rc with runit.

Have the FreeBSD folks decided how they will modernize their init system?

I heard about runit, but never tried it. Is it much different from others like open-rc?

In other news, Talisman is stalled a bit. Mostly because loading up the
Win 10 vm is a pain. That and I can't seem to make postie crash the way shawn does. This bothers me. Until I can figure out how to fix what I've got, it will be a while before I add more.

Not that you can't run a perfectly fine BBS with it the way it is, I'd
like to add more to the lua scripting, but until anyone wants to use it, i'm just stabbing in the dark trying to figure out what people want.

I'm most excited about postie. New tosser on the block with Squish support ...

Well I'm outta beer. Have fun with the bbsing!

I lately realized that my neck starts to itch when I drink beer. Bummer ...

---
* Origin: . (21:3/102)

apam wrote to All <=-

In other news, Talisman is stalled a bit. Mostly because loading up the Win 10 vm is a pain. That and I can't seem to make postie crash the way shawn does. This bothers me. Until I can figure out how to fix what
I've got, it will be a while before I add more.

Sorry. :( As I said before don't dwell on it, I can get by running fastecho
or to be honest I think I'm going to install good old squish and use it.

Well I'm outta beer. Have fun with the bbsing!

Picking up some beer later this afternoon so we can watch football. Buffalo
bills are hopefully going to kick ass today!

Shawn

... Among economists, the real world is considered to be a special case.

--- EzyBlueWave V3.00 01FB001F
* Origin: Tiny's BBS - telnet://tinysbbs.com:3023 (21:1/130)

apam wrote to All <=-

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no? Why would I do that?

I guess to learn more, experiment, see what I can break.

That sounds pretty interesting! Keep us posted on your progress as you get time.



... 2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2.
--- MultiMail
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

Re: Fellow BBS Aficionados
By: Oli to apam on Sun Jan 24 2021 12:01 pm

I heard about runit, but never tried it. Is it much different from others li open-rc?

You could argue that runit is faster and has less bottle necks than openrc. It is also much simpler.

I don't know aboyt FreeBSD, but I doubt OpenBSD will consider changing init anytime soon. They'd rather fix any issue in their current implementation than switch over something new and shiny until somebody else has tested it :-)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On Monday, January 25th apam muttered...

How goes it? I've had some beer, can you tell?

lol

Twas Monday, January 25th when apam said...

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no?

Yes, but it's awesome.



On Monday, January 25th apam said...

Anyway, I'm currently right back at a fresh FreeBSD 13 tree, and am grafting runit into it. The plan is to replace init / rc with runit.

Have you ever looked into s6?
https://skarnet.org/software/s6/



--
|08 ■ |12NuSkooler |06// |12Xibalba |08- |07"|06The place of fear|07"
|08 ■ |03xibalba|08.|03l33t|08.|03codes |08(|0344510|08/|03telnet|08, |0344511|08/|03ssh|08)
|08 ■ |03ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ |08| |03Phenom |08| |0367 |08| |03iMPURE |08| |03ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

BY: apam(21:1/182)


|11a|09> |10I guess to learn more, experiment, see what I can break.|07

That's the best reason to do anything!!


|11a|09> |10Not that you can't run a perfectly fine BBS with it the way it is, I'd|07
|11a|09> |10like to add more to the lua scripting, but until anyone wants to use it,|07
|11a|09> |10i'm just stabbing in the dark trying to figure out what people want.|07

I know the feeling, that's how I feel about the WWIVbasic support. Not sure what to add. Ditto for some of the display text expressions, etc. Need folks to try to push it and see what doesn't work.

Related to that, I may start reimplementing some bits that are hard coded today in the scripts to see how far I can get.

I wonder if doing more in Lua and shipping those scripts as the bbs would give you some inspiration for what's scripting support is needed?

|11r|09ushfan|07



--- WWIV 5.6.0.3400
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

Have you ever looked into s6?
https://skarnet.org/software/s6/

Not really, I did briefly some time ago, I can't remember why I liked
runit better.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.10-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/182)

That sounds pretty interesting! Keep us posted on your progress as
you get
time.

Well I got runit booting, I've mostly got it grafted into the freebsd
tree, but still have a way to go to get an install image ready.

I suppose I have to hack the installer a bit to install runit services
rather than just modify rc.conf etc.

It's fun, the downside is, it takes about 3 hours to build world on my machines, so... that's a long time to wait to discover you had a typo and
it failed.

There is actually a port in freebsd called runit-faster (which is what
I'm basing my work on). Although the github site for it has been archived.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.10-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/182)

Related to that, I may start reimplementing some bits that are hard
coded today in the scripts to see how far I can get.

I wonder if doing more in Lua and shipping those scripts as the bbs
would give you some inspiration for what's scripting support is
needed?

Yeah, that's a good way to do things, and I have done the oneliners, automessage interbbs oneliners / last callers in lua. I suppose, my
problem is coming up with the ideas, I really need xqtr or someone like
him that comes up with crazy new ideas for mystic scripts.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.10-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/182)

something i would like to see in both Linux and FreeBSD,
is a restructuring of the way programs or apps are installed and set up. i really think it should be set up the way apple setup darwin / OSX. in other words, each app is a self contained executable folder, and installed to /apps. i would also build it off a package app wrapper suchas snap, appimage, or flatpack. i think that is going to be the wave of the future for UNIXs. that way it gets away from "dependancy hell", which is a nightmare - espically if you are hand downloading and compiling each package in say gentoo or
archlinux. i think it would also make updating the kernel, and base system OS alot easier, and would possibly work with rolling updates.




On 24 Jan 2021, Oli said the following...

apam wrote (2021-01-24):

I forked freebsd. Yes. Am I crazy or no? Why would I do that?

lifetime project :). Matt Dillon has been working now for 18 years on
his FreeBSD fork.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040711014738/http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd

07/08/dragonfly_bsd_interview.html

Anyway, I'm currently right back at a fresh FreeBSD 13 tree, and am grafting runit into it. The plan is to replace init / rc with runit.

Have the FreeBSD folks decided how they will modernize their init system?

I heard about runit, but never tried it. Is it much different from
others like open-rc?

In other news, Talisman is stalled a bit. Mostly because loading up th Win 10 vm is a pain. That and I can't seem to make postie crash the wa shawn does. This bothers me. Until I can figure out how to fix what I' got, it will be a while before I add more.

Not that you can't run a perfectly fine BBS with it the way it is, I'd like to add more to the lua scripting, but until anyone wants to use i i'm just stabbing in the dark trying to figure out what people want.

I'm most excited about postie. New tosser on the block with Squish
support ...

Well I'm outta beer. Have fun with the bbsing!

I lately realized that my neck starts to itch when I drink beer. Bummer ...

---
* Origin: . (21:3/102)

Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy

telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Hive32 (21:4/129)

something i wish that all main distros would do is migrate back to system 5 init scripts, instead of using systemD. like in slackware. its much much cleaner and doesnt hog system memory.

On 24 Jan 2021, Arelor said the following...

Re: Fellow BBS Aficionados
By: Oli to apam on Sun Jan 24 2021 12:01 pm

I heard about runit, but never tried it. Is it much different from othe open-rc?

You could argue that runit is faster and has less bottle necks than openrc. It is also much simpler.

I don't know aboyt FreeBSD, but I doubt OpenBSD will consider changing init anytime soon. They'd rather fix any issue in their current implementation than switch over something new and shiny until somebody else has tested it :-)

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy

telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Hive32 (21:4/129)

gcubebuddy wrote (2021-02-02):

something i wish that all main distros would do is migrate back to system
5 init scripts, instead of using systemD. like in slackware. its much much cleaner

in which way is it cleaner? From a user's perspective systemd looks much cleaner. system 5 is just a bunch of cryptic script.

and doesnt hog system memory.

True. I run stuff in LXC containers. SystemD often uses more memory than the service that it starts.

---
* Origin: . (21:3/102)

On Tuesday, February 2nd gcubebuddy said...

something i would like to see in both Linux and FreeBSD, is a restructuring of the way programs or apps are installed and set up. i really think it should be set up the way apple setup darwin / OSX. in

This has been tried a bunch of ways. I think the closest to a "standard" on any Linux distro is Snap. There of course have been many container based approaches.

Fragmentation is a blessing and a curse in Linux (and BSD) land.



--
|08 ■ |12NuSkooler |06// |12Xibalba |08- |07"|06The place of fear|07"
|08 ■ |03xibalba|08.|03l33t|08.|03codes |08(|0344510|08/|03telnet|08, |0344511|08/|03ssh|08)
|08 ■ |03ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ |08| |03Phenom |08| |0367 |08| |03iMPURE |08| |03ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On 02-02-21 16:26, gcubebuddy wrote to Arelor <=-

something i wish that all main distros would do is migrate back to
system 5 init scripts, instead of using systemD. like in slackware. its much much cleaner and doesnt hog system memory.

I'm now at the point I've got used to systemd and it's a case of either/or. I'll go with whatever the distro I'm using runs. :)


... Who is General Failure, and why is he reading my disk?
=== MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

Re: re: Fellow BBS Aficionados
By: gcubebuddy to Oli on Tue Feb 02 2021 04:16 pm

something i would like to see in both Linux and FreeBSD,
is a restructuring of the way programs or apps are installed and set up. i really think it should be set up the way apple setup darwin / OSX. in other words, each ap
is a self contained executable folder, and installed to /apps. i would also build it off a package app wrapper suchas snap, appimage, or flatpack. i think that is goi
to be the wave of the future for UNIXs. that way it gets away from "dependancy hell", which is a nightmare - espically if you are hand downloading and compiling each
package in say gentoo or
archlinux. i think it would also make updating the kernel, and base system OS alot easier, and would possibly work with rolling updates.

There is already a Linux distribution that does that. I don't remember the name. Maybe it was CRUX?

I like OpenBSD's structure myself.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Re: Fellow BBS Aficionados
By: Oli to gcubebuddy on Tue Feb 02 2021 06:29 pm

gcubebuddy wrote (2021-02-02):

something i wish that all main distros would do is migrate back to system
5 init scripts, instead of using systemD. like in slackware. its much much cleaner

in which way is it cleaner? From a user's perspective systemd looks much cleaner. system 5 is just a bunch of cryptic script.

and doesnt hog system memory.

True. I run stuff in LXC containers. SystemD often uses more memory than the service that it starts.

SystemD is not an init system. It is a system daemon :-P It contains a lot of functionality to interface with a lot of things in a way that conflicts with existing
solutions (their $home mounting implementation anyone?).

Sys V styled init is whatever the distribution maintainer wants to make out of it. Slackware service scripts are very clear and managing them is not harder than
systemctl enable $whatever. Typical init scripts in LBS styled distributions, maybe not so much.

I like OpenBSD's take. It is script based, but service scripts work as small units. Initialitation configuration is done in a short file that contains a bunch of
variables. It reminds me so much of Slackware. If you want to enable something you do rcctl enable $something and you are ready to go.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

On Wednesday, February 3rd Arelor said...

There is already a Linux distribution that does that. I don't remember the name. Maybe it was CRUX?

Bedrock Linux does a lot of this type of stuff -- fancy chroots and the like: https://bedrocklinux.org/

Lets you mix and match distros into your own.


--
|08 ■ |12NuSkooler |06// |12Xibalba |08- |07"|06The place of fear|07"
|08 ■ |03xibalba|08.|03l33t|08.|03codes |08(|0344510|08/|03telnet|08, |0344511|08/|03ssh|08)
|08 ■ |03ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ |08| |03Phenom |08| |0367 |08| |03iMPURE |08| |03ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

Arelor around Wednesday, February 3rd...

SystemD is not an init system. It is a system daemon :-P

I don't know if you're doing it on purpose (I think you are?) but those are the same thing.


Arelor around Wednesday, February 3rd...

I like OpenBSD's take. It is script based, but service scripts work as small units. Initialitation configuration is done in a short file that contains a bunch of variables. It reminds me so much of Slackware. If you want to enable something you do rcctl enable $something and you are ready to go.

Traditional FreeBSD as well. rc.conf -> enable, set variables. system start foo.

...of course foo has to exist in rc.d/ or you have to write it (which you often do).



--
|08 ■ |12NuSkooler |06// |12Xibalba |08- |07"|06The place of fear|07"
|08 ■ |03xibalba|08.|03l33t|08.|03codes |08(|0344510|08/|03telnet|08, |0344511|08/|03ssh|08)
|08 ■ |03ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ |08| |03Phenom |08| |0367 |08| |03iMPURE |08| |03ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

Hi,
ya one of the main problems i have seen in Enterprise environments with systemD, is that when it boots up it brings all services up at the same time. sometimes specific services will have issues if its services is brought up
with out the underlieing services. such as NFS mounts. where i worked we ran into an issue where it would try and mount drives for NFS with out the
services already being up. previously we used a custom sys5 script that would wait till all the local drives were mounted and all the servces were up, then it would run the extra rc.local script to bring up the NFS mounts. last i
heard they were still having a problem with systemD NFS mounts.



On 02 Feb 2021, Oli said the following...

gcubebuddy wrote (2021-02-02):

something i wish that all main distros would do is migrate back to sys 5 init scripts, instead of using systemD. like in slackware. its much cleaner

in which way is it cleaner? From a user's perspective systemd looks much cleaner. system 5 is just a bunch of cryptic script.

and doesnt hog system memory.

True. I run stuff in LXC containers. SystemD often uses more memory than the service that it starts.

---
* Origin: . (21:3/102)

Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy

telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Hive32 (21:4/129)

haha yep! "dependancy hell"


On 02 Feb 2021, NuSkooler said the following...

On Tuesday, February 2nd gcubebuddy said...

something i would like to see in both Linux and FreeBSD, is a restructuring of the way programs or apps are installed and set up. i really think it should be set up the way apple setup darwin / OSX. in

This has been tried a bunch of ways. I think the closest to a "standard" on any Linux distro is Snap. There of course have been many container based approaches.

Fragmentation is a blessing and a curse in Linux (and BSD) land.

--
■ NuSkooler // Xibalba - "The place of fear"
■ xibalba.l33t.codes (44510/telnet, 44511/ssh)
■ ENiGMA 1/2 WHQ | Phenom | 67 | iMPURE | ACiDic
--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy

telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Hive32 (21:4/129)

Oh wow cool!



On 03 Feb 2021, Arelor said the following...

Re: re: Fellow BBS Aficionados
By: gcubebuddy to Oli on Tue Feb 02 2021 04:16 pm

something i would like to see in both Linux and FreeBSD,
is a restructuring of the way programs or apps are installed and set u really think it should be set up the way apple setup darwin / OSX. in o words, each ap
is a self contained executable folder, and installed to /apps. i would build it off a package app wrapper suchas snap, appimage, or flatpack. think that is goi
to be the wave of the future for UNIXs. that way it gets away from "dependancy hell", which is a nightmare - espically if you are hand downloading and compiling each
package in say gentoo or
archlinux. i think it would also make updating the kernel, and base sys OS alot easier, and would possibly work with rolling updates.

There is already a Linux distribution that does that. I don't remember
the name. Maybe it was CRUX?

I like OpenBSD's structure myself.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
--- SBBSecho 3.12-Linux
* Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)

Thanks
- Gamecube Buddy

telnet --<{bbs.hive32.com:23333}>--

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Hive32 (21:4/129)