Another request for anyone in the know --

I'm working on some research RE file description format history. FILE_ID.DIZ, DESC.SDI, so on.

One I haven't found much info on is DESC.SDI. The earliest I've found it referenced so far is 1990, but I have the feeling it's older than that. And I'm not sure who / what software invented it.

Any information on this file (or the subject itself) is greatly appreciated! Especially if you can point me to references/etc.

Some files covered:
* FILE_ID.DIZ - PCBoard. Scott Robinson has been helping me here. The exact version it appeared is still a little fuzzy but seems around '91 or so so v14?
* DESC.SDI
* DESCRIPT.ION
* FILES.BBS / similar
* WC3DESC (more info on this would be great too). From what I know it came about in Wildcat 3 but was quickly dropped for DESC.SDI/FILE_ID.DIZ



--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
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On 01 Dec 2020 at 05:11p, NuSkooler pondered and said...

I'm working on some research RE file description format history. FILE_ID.DIZ, DESC.SDI, so on.
Some files covered:
* FILE_ID.DIZ - PCBoard. Scott Robinson has been helping me here. The exact version it appeared is still a little fuzzy but seems around '91

I think there's something in the fsx file bases about the DIZ format? I'll
find it and re-hatch, you may have this already but perhaps it could help? :)

Best, Paul

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On Thursday, December 3rd Avon was heard saying...

I think there's something in the fsx file bases about the DIZ format? I'll find it and re-hatch, you may have this already but perhaps it could help? :)

I'm interested in any bits out there! :)

I do have "fileid.txt" v1.9 from '94. The format itself seems to come around '91 based on the PCBoard docs, some archive utilities mentioning it, and by looking at old archives where it starts to show up.



--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On 01 Dec 2020 at 09:38p, NuSkooler pondered and said...

I'm interested in any bits out there! :)
I do have "fileid.txt" v1.9 from '94. The format itself seems to come around '91 based on the PCBoard docs, some archive utilities mentioning it, and by looking at old archives where it starts to show up.

It's on it's way to you via the TXT echo now. I've also hatched the latest artpack from BT, the latest NULL and some interesting notes from Xqtr for a sprite engine file format - enjoy! :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Am 01.12.20 schrieb NuSkooler@21:1/121 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo Nuskooler,

Some files covered:

[...]

As I'm playing with CP/M software a lot, I found that many programs here
come bundled with "*.FOR" files (eg. QTERM.FOR for the program "QTerm").
These files also contain a short information about the specified software.
But I don't know anything about standards or something like that...

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.46
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

On Thursday, December 3rd Avon said...

It's on it's way to you via the TXT echo now. I've also hatched the latest artpack from BT, the latest NULL and some interesting notes from Xqtr for a sprite engine file format - enjoy! :)

Thank you!


--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On Wednesday, December 2nd acn was heard saying...

As I'm playing with CP/M software a lot, I found that many programs here
come bundled with "*.FOR" files (eg. QTERM.FOR for the program "QTerm"). These files also contain a short information about the specified software. But I don't know anything about standards or something like that...

Ooooo this is great! This gives me something to research at least. Do they match the archives, or how does one determine the prefix?



--

NuSkooler
Xibalba BBS @ xibalba.l33t.codes / 44510(telnet) 44511(ssh)
ENiGMA 1/2 BBS WHQ | Phenom | 67 | iMPURE | ACiDic

--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

NuSkooler wrote to All <=-

Some files covered:
* FILE_ID.DIZ - PCBoard. Scott Robinson has been helping me here. The exact version it appeared is still a little fuzzy but seems around '91
or so so v14? * DESC.SDI
* DESCRIPT.ION
* FILES.BBS / similar
* WC3DESC (more info on this would be great too). From what I know it
came about in Wildcat 3 but was quickly dropped for
DESC.SDI/FILE_ID.DIZ

IIRC, FILES.BBS was the flat file that was used by some BBS softwares to contain the file names, sizes, descriptions for the files in that
particular file area. Some BBS softwares would update their FILES.BBS file with the descriptions from the FILE_ID.DIZ when the file was uploaded (or
when a utility ran).

I don't remember it every being included in file archives to contain descriptions like the DIZ or SDI files were.



... How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?
--- MultiMail
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

Am 02.12.20 schrieb NuSkooler@21:1/121 in FSX_GEN:

Hallo Nuskooler,

As I'm playing with CP/M software a lot, I found that many programs here Ac>> come bundled with "*.FOR" files (eg. QTERM.FOR for the program "QTerm"). Ac>> These files also contain a short information about the specified
software. But I don't know anything about standards or something like
that...

Ooooo this is great! This gives me something to research at least. Do they match the archives, or how does one determine the prefix?

In the archives where I found *.FOR files, the name has always been in the form <PROGRAM NAME>.FOR, like QTERM.FOR in QTerm's archive in my example here.

You could look eg. here to find CP/M archives: http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/

The biggest "problem" with CP/M archives today is the usage of "unusual" compression/archiving programs (from today's standpoint) :)

Regards,
Anna

--- OpenXP 5.0.46
* Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)

Twas Wednesday, December 2nd when Blue White said...

IIRC, FILES.BBS was the flat file that was used by some BBS softwares to contain the file names, sizes, descriptions for the files in that particular file area. Some BBS softwares would update their FILES.BBS file with the descriptions from the FILE_ID.DIZ when the file was uploaded (or when a utility ran).

Maybe I should try to research FILES.BBS more too - I wonder which software it first showed up in? I know DESCRIPT.ION was very often used in the same way: Manage the list then external tools (or sometimes the BBS itself) could consume / vice versa.



--

NuSkooler
Xibalba BBS @ xibalba.l33t.codes / 44510(telnet) 44511(ssh)
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On Thursday, December 3rd acn was heard saying...

In the archives where I found *.FOR files, the name has always been in the form <PROGRAM NAME>.FOR, like QTERM.FOR in QTerm's archive in my example here.
You could look eg. here to find CP/M archives: http://www.classiccmp.org/cpmarchives/

Thanks! I went ahead and dug through some. The ones I found were multiline and stopped < 75 characters or so. I wonder if there are "rules" or a spec somewhere, that would be very interesting. It's annoying to google for because .FOR is also a FORTRAN file extention :D



--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

BY: NuSkooler(21:1/121)


|11N|09> |10Maybe I should try to research FILES.BBS more too - I wonder which|07
|11N|09> |10software it first showed up in? I know DESCRIPT.ION was very often used|07

I remember is referred to as the Opus file list format. May be wrong. Also I think TBBS had it (as QuickBBS was patterned after that).

It's a shame that Ben bought QuickBBS then lost the source in a HDD crash, I liked that software back in the day (at least the menu support in it).

|11r|09ushfan|07



--- WWIV 5.6.0.3357
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

On Friday, December 4th Rushfan was heard saying...

I remember is referred to as the Opus file list format. May be wrong. Also I think TBBS had it (as QuickBBS was patterned after that).

Thanks Rushfan, this gives me some nice points to dig on.


--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On Friday, December 4th Rushfan said...

I remember is referred to as the Opus file list format. May be wrong. Also I think TBBS had it (as QuickBBS was patterned after that).

Update that some people may find interesting:

So far I've been able to trace FILES.BBS back to 1988 in a QuickBBS 1.02 archive. The .zip file is so old that it uses the "reduce" compression method (or "unreduce" if you need to unzip) that modern tools do not seem to have due to copyrights. I was able to build InfoZip's unzip with unreduce.c included to snag QUICKBBS.DOC mentioning FILES.BBS.

Opus seems to have moved away from FILES.BBS at version 1.70. I've yet to find documentation on it prior, but clearly it was there.

...the search continues :)



--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

Re: Re: DESC.SDI / history
By: NuSkooler to Rushfan on Thu Dec 03 2020 11:23 pm

Opus seems to have moved away from FILES.BBS at version 1.70. I've yet to find documentation on it prior, but clearly it was there.

Maximus also uses FILES.BBS. Files are listed on one line each. Filename followed by description. Early versions were limited to 512 characters, enough for a file_id.diz if it stuck to the 10 lines x 45 characters per line rule back then and was later increased to 1024 characters per line.

Synchronet, Mystic and MBSE can import file descriptions from a FILES.BBS.

Ttyl :-),
Al

... Scotty, beam me to the Bahamas.
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)

Update that some people may find interesting:

Picturing you in khaki with a safari hat and archeological tools
unearthing this ancient bbs knowledge.

Oh and a curly moestache, just because.

Andrew


--- Talisman v0.7-dev (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: HappyLand v2.0 - telnet://happyland.zapto.org:11892/ (21:1/126.1)

BY: NuSkooler(21:1/121)


|11N|09> |10So far I've been able to trace FILES.BBS back to 1988 in a QuickBBS 1.02|07
|11N|09> |10archive. The .zip file is so old that it uses the "reduce" compression|07
|11N|09> |10method (or "unreduce" if you need to unzip) that modern tools do not|07
|11N|09> |10seem to have due to copyrights. I was able to build InfoZip's unzip with|07
|11N|09> |10unreduce.c included to snag QUICKBBS.DOC mentioning FILES.BBS.|07 |11N|09> |07
|11N|09> |10Opus seems to have moved away from FILES.BBS at version 1.70. I've yet|07
|11N|09> |10to find documentation on it prior, but clearly it was there.|07

Awesome digging. Would you make that QuickBBS.doc available? I'd love to see it. I ran QBBS for a few years (after WWIV, and before WWIV again), and have a lot of interest in it.

|11r|09ushfan|07


--- WWIV 5.6.0.3357
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

Maybe I should try to research FILES.BBS more too - I wonder which software it first showed up in? I know DESCRIPT.ION was very often
used in the same way: Manage the list then external tools (or
sometimes the BBS itself) could consume / vice versa.

Not sure which BBS software used it first, but GT Power was using a
version of FILES.BBS at least as far back as 1988/89. I could be wrong,
but have the impression that different BBS softwares may have required
or worked better with different formats, so it may not have been
standard.

#

--- MagickaBBS v0.15alpha (Linux/armv7l)
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

On Saturday, December 5th apam was heard saying...

Picturing you in khaki with a safari hat and archeological tools unearthing this ancient bbs knowledge.
Oh and a curly moestache, just because.

lol, if by "curly moestache" you mean "gray goatee and beard that badly needs a shave" then yessss!




--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

Rushfan around Friday, December 4th...

Awesome digging. Would you make that QuickBBS.doc available? I'd love to see it. I ran QBBS for a few years (after WWIV, and before WWIV again), and have a lot of interest in it.

Of course! Here is the archives extracted contents + the unzip (x86_64) binary and original .zip:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=34886939303395292374



--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

On Friday, December 4th Blue White was heard saying...

Not sure which BBS software used it first, but GT Power was using a version of FILES.BBS at least as far back as 1988/89. I could be wrong, but have the impression that different BBS softwares may have required or worked better with different formats, so it may not have been standard. #

So far it at least _seems_ that Opus *might* have been the first, but it's hard to find information on version 1.0 (aparently called v0.0). Seems like it was tightly (and I haven't figured out which used it first) coupled with FidoNet which of course Opus was heavily involved in.

So far I've got mentions back to 1986, but I'm going to keep digging. I'd love to find an "announcement" of sorts.

But you're right, everyone and their dog very quickly picked it up and used it for a directory database of sorts, and with it used with FTN that allowed descriptions to move about easier. Note to self: I need to look into if this was sort of a precursor to the Desc/LDesc fields in TIC files.





--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

BY: NuSkooler(21:1/121)


|11N|09> |10Of course! Here is the archives extracted contents + the unzip (x86_64)|07
|11N|09> |10binary and original .zip:|07
|11N|09> |10http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=34886939303395292374|07

Thanks, I got an File ID is not correct. File doesn't exist from that URL. Did a digit get dropped?

Thanks!
|11r|09ushfan|07


--- WWIV 5.6.0.3357
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

Re: RE: DESC.SDI / history
By: Blue White to NuSkooler on Fri Dec 04 2020 02:57 pm

Not sure which BBS software used it first, but GT Power was using a version of FILES.BBS at least as far back as 1988/89. I could be wrong, but have the impression that different BBS softwares may have required
or worked better with different formats, so it may not have been
standard.

True, the standard is rather flexible. Maximus support two different formats and MBSE uses yet another format and my htick files.bbs is in yet another.

Ttyl :-),
Al

... Warranty (n.): See Disclaimer.
--- SBBSecho 3.11-Linux
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106.1)

Twas Saturday, December 5th when Rushfan said...

Thanks, I got an File ID is not correct. File doesn't exist from that URL. Did a digit get dropped?

Shoot, maybe. Try this one:
https://gofile.io/d/cC0HkC


--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)

BY: NuSkooler(21:1/121)


|11N|09> |10So far I've got mentions back to 1986, but I'm going to keep digging.|07
|11N|09> |10I'd love to find an "announcement" of sorts.|07

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/FIDO/

Looks like FIDO v10 (1985) used it, it's part of their install defaults. Opus was after Fido IIRC, so likely Fido? Intereting digging. :)

|11r|09ushfan|07


--- WWIV 5.6.0.3357
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

BY: NuSkooler(21:1/121)


|11N|09> |10Shoot, maybe. Try this one:|07
|11N|09> |10https://gofile.io/d/cC0HkC|07

Thanks! That worked.

|11r|09ushfan|07


--- WWIV 5.6.0.3357
* Origin: Mystic Rhythms BBS (21:2/115)

So far it at least _seems_ that Opus *might* have been the first, but
it's hard to find information on version 1.0 (aparently called v0.0). Seems like it was tightly (and I haven't figured out which used it
first) coupled with FidoNet which of course Opus was heavily involved
in.

that would make sense. opus was one of the earliest widely used bbs
packages.


... The number you have dailed...Nine-one-one...has been changed.
--- MultiMail
* Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)

Rushfan around Saturday, December 5th...

http://software.bbsdocumentary.com/IBM/DOS/FIDO/
Looks like FIDO v10 (1985) used it, it's part of their install defaults. Opus was after Fido IIRC, so likely Fido? Intereting digging. :)

Thanks for the link, this stuff is infinitely interesting to me. Gotta know where you came from to know where you're going type of thing.

Yep '85 is the earliest source I know of so far!


--

NuSkooler
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--- ENiGMA 1/2 v0.0.12-beta (linux; x64; 12.13.1)
* Origin: Xibalba -+- xibalba.l33t.codes:44510 (21:1/121)