On Fri, 29 Nov 2019 12:57:23 +1300
"Avon -> Alterego" <0@101.1.21> wrote:

So if there were 2 or 3 or 4 "Avons", then things might get
done quicker (thus the end user experience benefits), and you
get more time for "this".
And when it gets to the size of FN (I always think big) - then
you can look back and say - I started "this".

At the heart of this discussion are a few things/points/questions you
are raising. Here's my take on what those are.

- what things are being done now that are (for want of a better term) network related admin that could be done not just by me but by
others?

Is there anything that can't be done by others?

The most important task is updating and distributing the nodelist.

Then you are the first contact for new nodes. It seems that you are spending quite some time in helping people to setup their BBS / FTN connectivity.

- is this happening now in any shape/form?

I don't believe so, but I'm not sure.

- is this seen as desirable / necessary, by whom, and why

I don't see any reason why the nodelist cannot be updated collaboratively. E.g.
use a private SVN / Git / Mercurial / Fossil repository and give every network
write access.

- what does an acceptable level of service look like for all this
stuff?

Level 8 would be nice ;)

- are we trying to fix something that is viewed as not broken, or is
it broken? (I may be a bit harsh in my terminology using broken but
you get the idea)

At the moment it is bus factor 1-ish, but as long as Avon is not broken and keeps updating the nodelist, I wouldn't call it broken. It depends on the criteria you have. If the criteria were scalability and fault-tolerance, you could call the current process broken. On the other hand, even if Avon would shutdown all his nodes without any warning, the network would not cease to exist.

@Alterego: I'm not sure if fsxnet should be seen as the successor to Fidonet. Maybe it would also make sense to start a new Fidonet in a truly decentralized and collaborative fashion?

---
* Origin: (21:1/151)

On 01 Dec 2019 at 06:19p, Oli pondered and said...

At the heart of this discussion are a few things/points/questions you are raising. Here's my take on what those are.

- what things are being done now that are (for want of a better term) network related admin that could be done not just by me but by
others?

Is there anything that can't be done by others?

Answering a question with a question bakes my brain :) If we could talk specifics that would enable me (at least) to give a more informed reply.

Then you are the first contact for new nodes. It seems that you are spending quite some time in helping people to setup their BBS / FTN connectivity.

I am first point of contact for a node application at the moment yes, but
then allocation of a node number, and setup / liaison with the node is handed off to the HUB admin. I do spend time helping others, often it can be someone who has been a member of this network or an othernet for quite some time and then something comes up and they ask for help. I mention this as it's not
like all my 'helping others' efforts are based around brand new nodes these days. That 'helping others' stuff ebbs and flows also.. hard to predict when
it will occur.

- is this happening now in any shape/form?

I don't believe so, but I'm not sure.

Hopefully the above info / reply will help clarify :)

The most important task is updating and distributing the nodelist.

[snip]

I don't see any reason why the nodelist cannot be updated
collaboratively. E.g. use a private SVN / Git / Mercurial / Fossil repository and give every network write access.

If we were to run with the established practices of NETs supplying a nodelist segment for compilation into a nodelist then this may address your comments about collaboration in this area? Is it needed - unsure. Could it be done - yep. I do have some ideas around decentralized nodelist management but it
would take some dev work to implement them.

- what does an acceptable level of service look like for all this stuff?

Level 8 would be nice ;)

I'm not an IT person by trade but I'm guessing this good - right? :)

- are we trying to fix something that is viewed as not broken, or is it broken? (I may be a bit harsh in my terminology using broken but you get the idea)

At the moment it is bus factor 1-ish, but as long as Avon is not broken and keeps updating the nodelist, I wouldn't call it broken. It depends
on the criteria you have. If the criteria were scalability and fault-tolerance, you could call the current process broken. On the other hand, even if Avon would shutdown all his nodes without any warning, the network would not cease to exist.

I don't think anything is really broken either. I think if it were then new nodes would not be coming in / others coming off. Chatter in the ehcos would
be nil etc.. and that's plainly not the case right now... so if broken were
to be the absence of activity etc.. then yep, were *not* broken :)

That all said, there will be different, probably better ways to do things,
but all dependent on what is agreed success / ideal state looks like. I can't help but think we should be kicking that topic around some more and fleshing out that bit first before jumping to solutions. My 2 cents..

@Alterego: I'm not sure if fsxnet should be seen as the successor to Fidonet. Maybe it would also make sense to start a new Fidonet in a
truly decentralized and collaborative fashion?

I'm more than happy for fsxNet to take the lead in experimenting with approaches to decentralization and collaboration. It's really an area of interest to me and others. I also am keen on how we can better implement encrypted mesh networking ideas into this discussion. But to do so we need agreement on what that means by all involved. I think I may have already said that :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On Mon, 2 Dec 2019 12:42:15 +1300
"Avon -> Oli" <0@101.1.21> wrote:

I'm more than happy for fsxNet to take the lead in experimenting with approaches to decentralization and collaboration. It's really an area
of interest to me and others. I also am keen on how we can better
implement encrypted mesh networking ideas into this discussion. But
to do so we need agreement on what that means by all involved. I
think I may have already said that :)

Could we create a dedicated echomail area for this (and all the things that were mentioned in the thread)? FSX_NETWORK, FSX_OPS, FSX_META or FSX_FTN, ...?

I find it hard to follow the discussions in FSX_GEN and I really would prefer a
low-traffic area. It also would work much better as an archive.

---
* Origin: (21:1/151)

On 02 Dec 2019 at 11:24a, Oli pondered and said...

Could we create a dedicated echomail area for this (and all the things that were mentioned in the thread)? FSX_NETWORK, FSX_OPS, FSX_META or FSX_FTN, ...?

I find it hard to follow the discussions in FSX_GEN and I really would prefer a low-traffic area. It also would work much better as an archive.

More than happy to do this, and good idea. I'll work on something over the
next 24 hours. Once set up I'll forward the older messages from this thread into the new echo. Hopefully that will set us up nicely to discuss, plan and expand on the topics being mooted.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Dec 2019 at 12:15p, Avon pondered and said...

On 02 Dec 2019 at 11:24a, Oli pondered and said...

Could we create a dedicated echomail area for this (and all the thing that were mentioned in the thread)? FSX_NETWORK, FSX_OPS, FSX_META or FSX_FTN, ...?

I find it hard to follow the discussions in FSX_GEN and I really woul prefer a low-traffic area. It also would work much better as an archi

More than happy to do this, and good idea. I'll work on something over
the next 24 hours. Once set up I'll forward the older messages from this thread into the new echo. Hopefully that will set us up nicely to
discuss, plan and expand on the topics being mooted.

Hi guys

From HISTORY.TXT

[snip]

2019-12-03
Created FSX_NET - fsxNet is now just over 4 years old. This echoarea has been
created as a space for discussions about the network, its
current operations, plans for the future and how best to
implement them. Suggested topics include decentralization,
collaboration, promotion, membership, encrypted connectivity
mesh networking, new protocol development + implementation
etc.

[snip]

This echoarea has just been created and should have auto created at the other HUBs. If not, sing out and let me know so I can chase things up.

The infopack etc. will be updated and changes reflected in the coming days
when it is next hatched.

If you want this echo you will need to link to it.

Best, Paul

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Dec 2019 at 12:15p, Avon pondered and said...

On 02 Dec 2019 at 11:24a, Oli pondered and said...

Could we create a dedicated echomail area for this (and all the thin

g

that were mentioned in the thread)? FSX_NETWORK, FSX_OPS, FSX_META o

r

FSX_FTN, ...?

I find it hard to follow the discussions in FSX_GEN and I really wou

l

prefer a low-traffic area. It also would work much better as an arch

i

More than happy to do this, and good idea. I'll work on something over
the next 24 hours. Once set up I'll forward the older messages from this
thread into the new echo. Hopefully that will set us up nicely to
discuss, plan and expand on the topics being mooted.

Hi guys

From HISTORY.TXT

[snip]

2019-12-03
Created FSX_NET - fsxNet is now just over 4 years old. This echoarea
has been
created as a space for discussions about the
network, its
current operations, plans for the future and how
best to
implement them. Suggested topics include decentralization,
collaboration, promotion, membership, encrypted connectivity
mesh networking, new protocol development + implementation
etc.

[snip]

This echoarea has just been created and should have auto created at
the other
HUBs. If not, sing out and let me know so I can chase things up.

The infopack etc. will be updated and changes reflected in the coming
days
when it is next hatched.

If you want this echo you will need to link to it.

Best, Paul

I would like this echo but honestly I have no idea where to send netmail to turn it on. :)

I'm VERY out of the loop at the moment. Sorry all.


--- NiKom v2.5.0
* Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)

Re: Re: FSX_NET - fsxNet Network Ops/Planning
By: Avon to All on Tue Dec 03 2019 09:02 pm

Created FSX_NET - fsxNet is now just over 4 years old. This echoarea has

Howdy, I'm currently overseas in India, and cannot VPN into home, so cant check
to see if this was created on Hub 3.

I'm back Friday, so I can check then.
...ëîåã

... Some things have got to be believed to be seen.
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)

On Wed, 4 Dec 2019 01:09:03 +1100
"Alterego -> Avon" <0@116.2.21> wrote:

Howdy, I'm currently overseas in India, and cannot VPN into home, so
cant check to see if this was created on Hub 3.

No it hasn't been created yet. SBBSEcho's Areafix replies with
"FSX_NET not found."

---
* Origin: (21:1/151)

Hello Avon,

More than happy to do this, and good idea. I'll work on something over
the next 24 hours. Once set up I'll forward the older messages from
this thread into the new echo. Hopefully that will set us up nicely to discuss, plan and expand on the topics being mooted.

I've added the area here although I haven't seen anything. I suspect the area was created at 4/100 but I may not be connected and can't contact Areafix to check.

Ttyl :-),
Al

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

On 03 Dec 2019 at 12:33p, Al pondered and said...

I've added the area here although I haven't seen anything. I suspect the area was created at 4/100 but I may not be connected and can't contact Areafix to check.

OK thanks for the info. Hopefully Dan will be able to advise.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Dec 2019 at 10:25a, Joacim Melin pondered and said...

I would like this echo but honestly I have no idea where to send netmail to turn it on. :)

I'm VERY out of the loop at the moment. Sorry all.

You would send a netmail to Areafix at 21:2/100 with your password in the subject and in the bodycopy state +FSX_NET

That *should* do the trick. Or I can just add you manually if you like :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 04 Dec 2019 at 01:09a, Alterego pondered and said...

Howdy, I'm currently overseas in India, and cannot VPN into home, so
cant check to see if this was created on Hub 3.

I'm back Friday, so I can check then.

Safe travels, and thanks :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 03 Dec 2019, Al said the following...

I've added the area here although I haven't seen anything. I suspect the area was created at 4/100 but I may not be connected and can't contact Areafix to check.

It was created, and I've manually added your node. I hope to be able to
figure out this netmail thing soon...


---

Black Panther(RCS)
Castle Rock BBS

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com (21:1/186)

Hello Black,

It was created, and I've manually added your node. I hope to be able
to figure out this netmail thing soon...

Good stuff thanks. Not important since you have connected me but it would be good to know wht's up with hpt's Areafix/Filefx netmail.

Is it all netmail that does that or just areafix and/or filefix?

I'd have to call that a critical issue that I hope can be solved.

Ttyl :-),
Al

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

On 03 Dec 2019, Al said the following...

Is it all netmail that does that or just areafix and/or filefix?

I'd have to call that a critical issue that I hope can be solved.

Right now, it's all netmail coming in. What makes it interesting, is HPT sent me a netmail message to let me know it auto-created FSX_NET...


---

Black Panther(RCS)
Castle Rock BBS

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/02 (Linux/64)
* Origin: Castle Rock BBS - bbs.castlerockbbs.com (21:1/186)

On 03 Dec 2019 at 10:25a, Joacim Melin pondered and said...

I would like this echo but honestly I have no idea where to send netmail
to turn it on. :)

I'm VERY out of the loop at the moment. Sorry all.

You would send a netmail to Areafix at 21:2/100 with your password in
the
subject and in the bodycopy state +FSX_NET

That *should* do the trick. Or I can just add you manually if you like
:)

Please add me. :)

Thanks!


--- NiKom v2.5.0
* Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)

On 04 Dec 2019 at 09:07a, Joacim Melin pondered and said...

Please add me. :)

Thanks!

Done, you should be linked in now.

Cheers, Paul

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 12-04-19 21:18, Avon wrote to Joacim Melin <=-

On 04 Dec 2019 at 09:07a, Joacim Melin pondered and said...

Please add me. :)

Thanks!

Done, you should be linked in now.

I've just areafixed the area myself. :)


... What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind! - Homer S.
=== MultiMail/Win v0.51
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)

Re: Re: FSX_NET - fsxNet Network Ops/Planning
By: Alterego to Avon on Wed Dec 04 2019 01:09 am

Howdy, I'm currently overseas in India, and cannot VPN into home, so cant check to see if this was created on Hub 3.
I'm back Friday, so I can check then.

OK, FSX_NET added to hub 3 - if you want to be linked, let me know (or send a message to areafix)...
...ëîåã

... The world looks as if it has been left in the custody of trolls.
--- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
* Origin: I'm playing with ANSI+videotex - wanna play too? (21:2/116)

On 04 Dec 2019, Joacim Melin said the following...

You would send a netmail to Areafix at 21:2/100 with your password in the
subject and in the bodycopy state +FSX_NET

Paul,
I can't find my areafix password. Can you either (or both): send me my password, and auto-add me to any areas I'm not already connected to?

Thanks!

Ian

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A42 2019/02/01 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Parity Error BBS - Kelowna BC (21:1/133)

Hello Erazmus,

I can't find my areafix password. Can you either (or both): send me
my password, and auto-add me to any areas I'm not already connected
to?

Now that I am using HPT also, that problem we had with BBBS is no more and seen
by lines pass through HPT intact so I could connect you also. Your node is still setup here as it was although not connected to the fsxNet areas currently.

Netmail me if you want to do that.

Ttyl :-),
Al

--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
* Origin: The Rusty MailBox - Penticton, BC Canada (21:4/106)

On 08 Dec 2019 at 10:17a, Erazmus pondered and said...

Paul,
I can't find my areafix password. Can you either (or both): send me my password, and auto-add me to any areas I'm not already connected to?

Thanks!

Ian

Hi Ian

I will netmail you now and connect you also at this end...

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 08 Dec 2019 at 10:17a, Erazmus pondered and said...

I can't find my areafix password. Can you either (or both): send me my password, and auto-add me to any areas I'm not already connected to?

done, have linked you to that and the other echos you were not connected to, feel free to adjust to taste.

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

On 10 Dec 2019, Avon said the following...

done, have linked you to that and the other echos you were not connected to, feel free to adjust to taste.

Thank you for the excellent service as always :)

Ian

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A42 2019/02/01 (Linux/64)
* Origin: The Parity Error BBS - Kelowna BC (21:1/133)

Re: Re: This vs That - taking the pulse.
By: Avon to Oli on Mon Dec 02 2019 12:42 pm

Hi Paul

just letting you now I and going on holiday (nelson) tomorrow till progably sunday. I would like to say all my bbs will stay online well Ihope they do
so if not you maydo what you think best to do put it on hold or stop my feed

Thank you
and have a nice day

Ian

1st, 2nd, 3rd Choice Core

On 31 Jan 2020 at 10:36p, Sneaky pondered and said...

just letting you now I and going on holiday (nelson) tomorrow till progably sunday. I would like to say all my bbs will stay online well Ihope they do so if not you maydo what you think best to do put it on
hold or stop my feed

Have a nice trip Ian... I'll just leave things as they are and all should be fine :)

--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A44 2020/01/29 (Windows/32)
* Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

Hi Avon wrote to Sneaky <=-

On 31 Jan 2020 at 10:36p, Sneaky pondered and said...

just letting you now I and going on holiday (nelson) tomorrow till progably sunday. I would like to say all my bbs will stay online well Ihope they do so if not you maydo what you think best to do put it on
hold or stop my feed

Have a nice trip Ian... I'll just leave things as they are and all
should be fine :)

I will do, and thank you

Ian

2nd Choice Core Nz
___ MultiMail/Win v0.52

--- Mystic BBS/QWK v1.12 A43 2019/03/03 (Windows/32)
* Origin: 2nd Choice Core|New Zealand (21:1/152)