Hello Alexander,

Friday October 19 2018, Alexander Koryagin wrote to All:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
The second day at the Chateau Marmont was hotter than the first. In
fact, the temperatures were breaking records. Fans whirred in the
lobby, where people sat flapping books under their chins.

The atmosphere of Los Angeles was also heating up, because the Academy Awards were the following night. Already, in the hotels and smart
houses, famous directors, producers, actors, actresses, screenwriters,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

musicians, lawyers, and agents were getting their beauty sleep and preparing themselves for the big event. The clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians, jewelers, limousine companies, flower
shops, image therapists, and speechwriters of the city were working overtime.
----- The end of the citation -----

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

What is a beauty sleep?

It's a sleep before midnight.

If the celebrities were sleeping how did they attend "the clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians, jewelers..."?

I may suggest that they spent very little time for a sleep, just a beauty sleep, and most of the night they prepared themselves for the event. Although for me it would sound more natural if they did not sleep till early in the morning in their preparations. So maybe there are other explanations.

Michael

... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)

Hi, all!

From the same book:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
The second day at the Chateau Marmont was hotter than the first. In fact, the temperatures were breaking records. Fans whirred in the lobby, where people sat
flapping books under their chins.

The atmosphere of Los Angeles was also heating up, because the Academy Awards were the following night. Already, in the hotels and smart houses, famous directors, producers, actors, actresses, screenwriters, musicians, lawyers, and
agents were getting their beauty sleep and preparing themselves for the big event. The clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians, jewelers, limousine companies, flower shops, image therapists, and speechwriters of the city were working overtime.
----- The end of the citation -----

What is a beauty sleep? If the celebrities were sleeping how did they attend "the clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians, jewelers... "?

Bye, all!
Alexander Koryagin
english_tutor 2018

---
* Origin: - nntp://news.fidonet.fi - Lake Ylo - Finland - (2:221/6)

Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to All:

From the same book:

-----Beginning of the citation-----
The second day at the Chateau Marmont was hotter than the
first. In fact, the temperatures were breaking records.

Heh. The same thing happened twenty years ago, when Dallas & I took
our daughter to Disneyland. We thought the temperatures would be more bearable
during our "spring break" in March than in July or August. No such luck. :-))

The atmosphere of Los Angeles was also heating up, because
the Academy Awards were the following night. Already, in the
hotels and smart houses, famous directors, producers, actors,
actresses, screenwriters, musicians, lawyers, and agents were
getting their beauty sleep and preparing themselves for the
big event. The clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians,
jewelers, limousine companies, flower shops, image therapists,
and speechwriters of the city were working overtime.
----- The end of the citation -----

What is a beauty sleep?

My mother often spoke of getting one's beauty sleep, especially when
as a teenager I wanted to stay up later than she did. IIRC she invariably used
a possessive pronoun with it, however... not an article.

I suppose the rationale is that frown lines & other apparent defects
may be less noticeable in people who are well-rested... [chuckle].

If the celebrities were sleeping how did they attend
"the clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians,
jewelers... "?

Good question. I can see how dressmakers, speech writers, and image
consultants might make a few changes on the day before a major event... but I'm
not sure about all the others. It seems to me that a clothing designer's work,
e.g., would have to be completed weeks in advance to allow time for other folks
to do the hands-on part whereas a dressmaker might be called upon to make minor
adjustments for customers who have lost or gained weight fairly recently. OTOH
a hairdresser or beautician might not be able to accommodate everyone who wants
to book an appointment on the morning or afternoon of the big day itself.

I know fiction requires the willing suspension of disbelief... and I
don't move in the circles the author describes. Maybe thinking too much spoils
the story, or maybe it's not the sort of literature which can stand up to close
scrutiny. While I notice the elegance of the parallisms in this excerpt I must
admit I'm wondering if the author gets a bit too carried away at times.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi, Michael! Recently you wrote in a message to Alexander Koryagin:

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

The author put these words in alphabetical order. So would I. I've
do noticed people using "actor" to refer to both and I could write an essay on
the subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)

What is a beauty sleep?

It's a sleep before midnight.

If you believe that you must be a "morning person". As I understand
it, the idea is that people sleep most deeply during the first four hours & all
right-thinking people are in bed by 8:00 PM... [wry grin].

If the celebrities were sleeping how did they attend "the
clothes designers, hairdressers, beauticians, jewelers..."?

I may suggest that they spent very little time for a sleep,
just a beauty sleep, and most of the night they prepared
themselves for the event. Although for me it would sound
more natural if they did not sleep till early in the morning
in their preparations. So maybe there are other explanations.

I guess an afternoon or early evening nap could be described in such
a way... and the celebrities undoubtedly want to look their best, so they might
take a break as time allows. What puzzles me, however, is why all these people
would be so busy on Friday e.g. when the event in question is scheduled to take
place on Saturday evening. It seems to me the hairdo, makeup, and flowers need
to be as fresh as possible & might have to wait until the next morning.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hi again, Michael! It seems my previous reply to you scanned out while I was making a last-minute correction. The first bit should have said:

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

The author put these words in alphabetical order. So would I. I've
noticed people using "actor" in reference to both at times and I could write an
essay on the subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

Sunday November 04 2018, Ardith Hinton wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

The author put these words in alphabetical order. So would
I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference to both at times
and I could write an essay on the subject, but I'll leave it at that
for now.... ;-)

I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)

Michael

... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)

Hi, Michael! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

The author put these words in alphabetical order. So
would I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference
to both at times and I could write an essay on the
subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)

I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)

On one hand I'm thinking "Me & my big mouth!"... on the other I know
I'll have a great time organizing my thoughts about various things I've learned
over the years because one of my correspondents has expressed an interest. ;-)

Until the 1960's, schoolteachers used formal grammar... and expected
their students to do likewise. My grade two teacher, e.g., insisted we speak &
write in complete sentences at all times. She'd repeat "have you not" until we
figured out for ourselves that she meant "haven't you" because... as I now know ... contractions aren't used either in formal English or in literature intended
for beginning readers. In those days no explanation was offered, however. The
way many Authority Figures dealt with colloquial English was to ignore whatever
they didn't approve of... and from that standpoint I appreciate the descriptive
approach taken by modern dictionaries, in which they report what people say but
include flags like "colloq." or "coarse slang" or "[Aus./Cdn./UK/US]" so we can
make our own choices as to what works best in a particular situation.

You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe as "gallows
humour" from senior citizens about how, if one didn't say "Miss Stickler, may I
please go to the lavatory?" one would be completely ignored or be forced to sit
through a lecture on the difference between "can" & "may" or wait until recess.

When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the sign "GIRLS'
LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS". In many ways that makes more sense to
me than pictures which could be interpreted as meaning "males wearing kilts" or
"females wearing trousers". In the sink-or-swim environment of my childhood, I
learned a lot about English which I didn't fully appreciate back then.... :-))

Things began to change during the 1960's. People questioned many of
the rules they'd grown up with... one being the use of the masculine pronoun in
situations where the gender of any individual may not be obvious. According to
the rules of formal grammar "each student should bring his own pencil" is quite
correct, unless all of the students are female. Some women didn't like that...
they felt they were being ignored, especially when the word "man" was also used
to refer to human beings in general. I thought it was silly that if I had just
one male student in a class of forty I was required to say "his", although when
I read professional literature I noticed that nurses & elementary teachers were
referred to as if they were invariably female. For many people nowadays it's a
lot easier to use the plural pronoun regardless of the actual gender or number.

Re occupational titles people can no longer take it for granted that
firemen & mailmen are male... so they are called fire fighters & mail carriers.
The majority of such titles appear to be gender-neutral even if they weren't in
the past. There are still exceptions, though. While waiters & waitresses have
been replaced by servers it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
governor... and I must admit to some puzzlement over the increasing tendency to
refer to both actors & actresses as actors because I would imagine their gender
is a legitimate job requirement if e.g. the casting director wants somebody who
can handle the role of Prince Charming or Snow White in a live-action film. In
animated films I can see from the credits that males play female roles at times
& vice versa... but I probably wouldn't know otherwise. If what matters is the
sound of their voice rather than their physical appearance I can think of other
situations like that too. But when Meryrl Streep describes herself as an actor
I'm not sure I understand her line of reasoning. I guess she likes the idea of
a unisex job description & I'm not averse to it myself. OTOH, she's old enough
to remember when some feminists would have been outraged about her choice. :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Hello Ardith,

Thursday November 22 2018, Ardith Hinton wrote to Michael Dukelsky:

Actors were put before actresses. It is sexism! :-)

The author put these words in alphabetical order. So
would I. I've noticed people using "actor" in reference
to both at times and I could write an essay on the
subject, but I'll leave it at that for now.... ;-)

I am looking forward to reading your essay. :)

On one hand I'm thinking "Me & my big mouth!"... on the
other I know I'll have a great time organizing my thoughts about
various things I've learned over the years because one of my correspondents has expressed an interest. ;-)

It is good you've made a decision to share your thoughts with us.

Until the 1960's, schoolteachers used formal grammar... and expected their students to do likewise. My grade two teacher, e.g., insisted we speak & write in complete sentences at all times. She'd repeat "have you not" until we figured out for ourselves that she
meant "haven't you" because... as I now know
... contractions aren't used either in formal English or in literature intended for beginning readers. In those days no explanation was
offered, however. The way many Authority Figures dealt with
colloquial English was to ignore whatever they didn't approve of...
and from that standpoint I appreciate the descriptive approach taken
by modern dictionaries, in which they report what people say but
include flags like "colloq." or "coarse slang" or "[Aus./Cdn./UK/US]"
so we can make our own choices as to what works best in a particular situation.

You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe as "gallows humour" from senior citizens about how, if one didn't say

What is gallows here? Is it vicious, perverse, wicked or is it a gibbet, derrick?

"Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one would be
completely ignored or be forced to sit through a lecture on the
difference between "can" & "may" or wait until recess.

Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny at all.

When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the
sign "GIRLS' LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS". In many ways
that makes more sense to me than pictures which could be interpreted
as meaning "males wearing kilts" or "females wearing trousers". In
the sink-or-swim environment of my childhood, I learned a lot about English which I didn't fully appreciate back then.... :-))

I understand you mean that girls' feelings were neglected. But saying of sink-or-swim environment in general. It may be cruel, but it prepares a young person to a real life, doesn't it? It is interesting to hear what this environment manifested in? Has anything changed since then?

Things began to change during the 1960's. People
questioned many of the rules they'd grown up with... one being the use
of the masculine pronoun in situations where the gender of any
individual may not be obvious. According to the rules of formal
grammar "each student should bring his own pencil" is quite correct, unless all of the students are female. Some women didn't like that... they felt they were being ignored, especially when the word "man" was
also used to refer to human beings in general. I thought it was silly that if I had just one male student in a class of forty I was required
to say "his", although when I read professional literature I noticed
that nurses & elementary teachers were referred to as if they were invariably female. For many people nowadays it's a lot easier to use
the plural pronoun regardless of the actual gender or number.

Re occupational titles people can no longer take it for
granted that firemen & mailmen are male... so they are called fire fighters & mail carriers.

Well, it is maybe OK with mail carriers, but firemen have very physically hard and dangerous work. Do you think it is good when women want to do a physically hard work?

The majority of such titles appear to be
gender-neutral even if they weren't in the past. There are still exceptions, though. While waiters & waitresses have been replaced by servers it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
governor...

In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.

and I must admit to some puzzlement over the increasing
tendency to refer to both actors & actresses as actors because I would imagine their gender is a legitimate job requirement if e.g. the
casting director wants somebody who can handle the role of Prince
Charming or Snow White in a live-action film. In animated films I can
see from the credits that males play female roles at times & vice
versa... but I probably wouldn't know otherwise. If what matters is
the sound of their voice rather than their physical appearance I can
think of other situations like that too. But when Meryrl Streep
describes herself as an actor I'm not sure I understand her line of reasoning. I guess she likes the idea of a unisex job description &
I'm not averse to it myself. OTOH, she's old enough to remember when
some feminists would have been outraged about her choice. :-)

Here the society is more conservative and we have no such changes in the language yet. They are still ahead, but I think such changes are inevitable. On
the other hand one can never say how much time must pass before the changes start. When I was young it seemed that "socialism" we had here was forever. But
it unexpectedly crashed. So maybe the changes in the language you talked about may also come to us much earlier than somebody may imagine.

Michael

... node (at) f1042 (dot) ru
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20170303
* Origin: Moscow, Russia (2:5020/1042)

Hi, Michael! Awhile ago you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:

You may have seen jokes elsewhere of a type I'd describe
as "gallows humour" from senior citizens about how, if
one didn't say

What is gallows here? Is it vicious, perverse, wicked or
is it a gibbet, derrick?

Literally, "gallows" is synonymous with "gibbet"... a structure where
people are "hanged by the neck until dead". A "derrick", AKA a "crane" in this
part of the world, is used for lifting heavy (non-human) physical objects.

The term "gallows humour" is a metaphor. It refers to a satirical or
ironic commentary about matters which are/were frightening or painful for those
directly involved. I guess one could call it "perverse" in the sense that it's
a deliberate & often rather mischievous departure from convention.

"Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one would
be completely ignored or be forced to sit through a lecture

Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny at all.

Not to worry! AFAIC you've identified another distinguishing feature ... very few people find this sort of joke amusing unless they've had a similar
experience. It's not funny when you're in grade one or two & the teacher has a
polysyllabic British name you've never heard before & s/he expects you to speak
in a dialect nobody else around you uses. I think there are folks here who can
probably relate because their parents... like mine... came from SomePlace Else.
When the wounds aren't so fresh, one sees from a different perspective.... :-)

When our daughter went to the same school I noticed the sign
"GIRLS' LAVATORY" had been truncated to "GIRLS" [...].

I understand you mean that girls' feelings were neglected.

What I was thinking of was the sort of situation where one may not be
taught how to read words such as "lavatory" (which has never been in common use
around these parts during my lifetime although it may have been at the time the
school was built) or how to interpret various symbols. I can't say for certain
what happened in the boys' basement because as females our daughter & I weren't
allowed to set foot there... but I reckon that when the school began to include
kindergarten together with many students who weren't native speakers of English
somebody realized it might be a good idea to update the signs for both genders.

While some women may have felt neglected or ignored by formal English
years ago there were probably male nurses & elementary school teachers who felt
the same way. The wording in the professional literature has changed now... so
one may see masculine & feminine pronouns used in alternate chapters. People's
attitudes don't always change in response to changes in the language, though...
or if they do the changes tend to occur more slowly.

it prepares a young person to a real life, doesn't it? It is
interesting to hear what this environment manifested in?

In other echoes, it is often said that whatever doesn't kill us makes
us stronger. I survived... I developed an "ear" for some of the fine points of
the language which others might miss... and eventually I began to realize I was
fairly proficient in English & enjoyed teaching it. :-)

While waiters & waitresses have been replaced by servers
it would not be safe to assume a governess is a female
governor...

In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.

Ah... just as a princess might be the wife of a prince. In English a
governess is a woman employed to teach other people's children at home.... :-)

Here the society is more conservative and we have no such
changes in the language yet. They are still ahead, but I
think such changes are inevitable.

Language is always growing & changing. But in a conservative society
folks may be less easily persuaded to hurry things along.... :-)




--- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+
* Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)

Michael Dukelsky to Ardith Hinton:

"Miss Stickler, may I please go to the lavatory?" one
would be completely ignored or be forced to sit through
a lecture on the difference between "can" & "may" or
wait until recess.

Hm-m-m... For me it is a strange joke, it is not funny
at all.

But "may" is the right word to ask permission. I remeber
these anecdotes:

-- Miss Stickler, can I open the window?
-- You certainly can, but you may not.

-- Can you pass the salt?
-- Yes.
-- Can you pass the salt?
-- Yes.
-- Can you pass the salt?
-- Yes.

In Russian a governess is rather a governor's wife.

In Russian:
�㡥ୠ��� (gubernatorsha) -- governor's wife
�㢥ୠ�⪠ (guvernantka) -- governess
-- of which neither is a Russian word :-)

---
* Origin: *** nntp://fidonews.mine.nu *** Finland *** (2:221/6.0)