Are you saying any eyewitness accounts of aliens should be assumed to
be false?

Nightfox

In the Bible they're called angels and demons. They don't need
spacecraft to travel. They have interdimensional access.

Demons like to fool people. The accounts may be real, though inaccurate
about the source.


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Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to NIGHTFOX on Wed May 21 2025 01:56 pm

Are you saying any eyewitness accounts of aliens should be assumed to
be false?

In the Bible they're called angels and demons. They don't need spacecraft to travel. They have interdimensional access.

Demons like to fool people. The accounts may be real, though inaccurate about the source.

I don't think we should assume angels & demons from the bible and extraterrestrials are the same thing..

Nightfox

---
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I don't think we should assume angels & demons from the bible and extraterrestrials are the same thing..

Nightfox

In the Bible, God tells us what we need to know. No mention of aliens in spacecraft.

Demons are real though.

Mark 5:1-20.


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In the Bible, God tells us what we need to know. No mention of aliens in spacecraft.

Demons are real though.

There's a lot that the bible doesn't mention. The bible doesn't mention automobiles - does that mean they aren't real?

Nightfox

---
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There's a lot that the bible doesn't mention. The bible doesn't
mention automobiles

How do you know, have you read it all? Few do.

does that mean they aren't real?

Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one
to change the world.


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Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to NIGHTFOX on Wed May 21 2025 10:43 pm

There's a lot that the bible doesn't mention. The bible doesn't
mention automobiles

How do you know, have you read it all? Few do.

I haven't, but I think it's safe to say the bible didn't specifically mention automobiles, computers, the internet, and other things we have from today..

does that mean they aren't real?

Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one to change the world.

True, and that's aside the point.

Nightfox

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Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one t change the world.

True, and that's aside the point.

There are no aliens. But there are demons who like to fool people.


* SLMR 2.1a *
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I think it's safe to say the bible didn't specifically mention
automobiles, computers, the internet, and other things we have from
today..

The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future. What we have
today is powerless against His judgment. Forseen and foretold.


* SLMR 2.1a *
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Jcurtis wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-

Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one

t

change the world.

True, and that's aside the point.

There are no aliens. But there are demons who like to fool people.

Wow, the Koolaid is strong in this one.



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Jcurtis wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-

@MSGID: <682F6FB3.14079.dove-rel@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <682F5293.10008.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>

I think it's safe to say the bible didn't specifically mention
automobiles, computers, the internet, and other things we have from
today..

The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future. What we have today is powerless against His judgment. Forseen and foretold.

How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see into the future?

Ive read and heard many interpretations but I'm wondering about yours. If we truly can change our ways, then the future is not determined until we make our choice, and therefore God cannot know. If God knows our choice, then we have no
choice, and from where come responsibility?
e

... BoraxMan
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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on Fri May 23 2025 07:57 am

Ive read and heard many interpretations but I'm wondering about yours. If we truly can change our ways, then the future is not determined until we make our choice, and therefore God cannot know. If God knows our choice, then we have no
choice, and from where come responsibility? e

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" - Rush, "Freewill"

Nightfox

---
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Nightfox wrote to Jcurtis <=-

Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to NIGHTFOX on Wed May 21 2025 01:56 pm

Are you saying any eyewitness accounts of aliens should be assumed to
be false?

In the Bible they're called angels and demons. They don't need spacecraft to travel. They have interdimensional access.

Demons like to fool people. The accounts may be real, though inaccurate about the source.

I don't think we should assume angels & demons from the bible and extraterrestrials are the same thing..

What other explanation? Creatures that 'evolved differently?'
This assumes you have the worldview that man evolved and
wasn't created...



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Gamgee wrote to Jcurtis <=-

Jcurtis wrote to NIGHTFOX <=-

Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one

t

change the world.

True, and that's aside the point.

There are no aliens. But there are demons who like to fool people.

Wow, the Koolaid is strong in this one.

I may not see eye to eye with Jcurtis on everything, but I
agree with this point too. There is no proof that they
come from another planet, but they do come from 'not on
this earth.'



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Boraxman wrote to Jcurtis <=-

The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future. What we have today is powerless against His judgment. Forseen and foretold.

How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see
into the future?

Ive read and heard many interpretations but I'm wondering about yours.
If we truly can change our ways, then the future is not determined
until we make our choice, and therefore God cannot know. If God knows
our choice, then we have no
choice, and from where come responsibility?

You sound like my son. :-) He calls it the illusion of choice.

Personally, I see it as God is outside of time, space and
matter. Therefore He is the same yesterday, today and
tomorrow.

You and I don't know what will happen tomorrow, nor what
decisions we will make, but He does. Does this mean we
don't have a choice? Not at all! From our perspective,
we haven't made the choice yet. But from His perspective,
it's already happened.

So if it's 'already happened' how can it change? It can't.
So how can it be a choice? Because TO US it hasn't been
made yet.

Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
choose.


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to Nightfox on Fri May 23 2025 11:33 am

I don't think we should assume angels & demons from the bible and
extraterrestrials are the same thing..

What other explanation? Creatures that 'evolved differently?' This assumes you have the worldview that man evolved and wasn't created...

I just don't know why we'd assume that extraterrestrials are angels & demons. I mean, we humans aren't angels & demons. Why would beings from another planet be?

And if you believe in evolution, naturally they'd have evolved differently on another planet. Or if you believe in creation, they'd be another one of God's creations.

Nightfox

---
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The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future.

How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see into the future?

Prophecy guides us to life. We are not puppets. Maybe it bothers
atheists but I don't see a problem.


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to BORAXMAN on Fri May 23 2025 02:39 pm

The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future.

How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see into t future?

Prophecy guides us to life. We are not puppets. Maybe it bothers
atheists but I don't see a problem.

I'm not particularly bothered by it. Just trying to understands someones moral framework and how they understand the implications of what they are saying.

If God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey, and it could not have been otherwise, I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil. Especially since God made us and the universe, and is omnipotent. This circle doesn't square.



But this is why I don't believe, and to me, the Old Testament is just a collection of Jewish history and myths and allegories and stories.

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jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6830D001.10017.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <682FA3D5.8143.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

Boraxman wrote to Jcurtis <=-

The Bible is prophetic. That means God can see the future. What we have today is powerless against His judgment. Forseen and foretold.

How do you reconcile us having free with with God being able to see
into the future?

Ive read and heard many interpretations but I'm wondering about yours.
If we truly can change our ways, then the future is not determined
until we make our choice, and therefore God cannot know. If God knows
our choice, then we have no
choice, and from where come responsibility?

You sound like my son. :-) He calls it the illusion of choice.

Personally, I see it as God is outside of time, space and
matter. Therefore He is the same yesterday, today and
tomorrow.

You and I don't know what will happen tomorrow, nor what
decisions we will make, but He does. Does this mean we
don't have a choice? Not at all! From our perspective,
we haven't made the choice yet. But from His perspective,
it's already happened.

So if it's 'already happened' how can it change? It can't.
So how can it be a choice? Because TO US it hasn't been
made yet.

Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
choose.

This is a problem that is discussed in physics as well, whether the
universe is deterministic and whether a deternistic universe allows
free will.


Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

It still is reasonable to act as if we have choices, after all, our
choices are influenced by what happens to us, but this creates a bit
of a conundrum. If we indeed only have one path, who set that path?

For us mere mortals, we can attribute responsibility to each other,
because there is not other candidate. But if a Deity was the first
Prime Mover, then responsibility lies there. Then we have
predestination.

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jimmylogan wrote to Gamgee <=-

Mankind survived thousands of years without cars. Jesus didn't need one to change the world.

True, and that's aside the point.

There are no aliens. But there are demons who like to fool people.

Wow, the Koolaid is strong in this one.

I may not see eye to eye with Jcurtis on everything, but I
agree with this point too. There is no proof that they
come from another planet, but they do come from 'not on
this earth.'

More mumbo-jumbo word salad garbage.



... Ignorance can be cured. Stupid is forever.
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God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey

Atheist misconception.

I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil
this is why I don't believe

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.


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Jcurtis wrote to BORAXMAN <=-

@MSGID: <6832174F.14093.dove-rel@vert.synchro.net>
@REPLY: <6831370D.8153.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey

Atheist misconception.

I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil
this is why I don't believe

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

People have been saying that for centuries now...

Pardon my skepticism!

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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to BORAXMAN on Sat May 24 2025 12:00 pm

I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil this is why I
don't believe

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).

Oden on the other hand never said he would save the human race from evil. He just said he'd get rid of the frost giants.


I don't see any frost giants, do you?

...Ambition is the last refuge of the failure.

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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to jimmylogan on Sat May 24 2025 11:21 am

Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made, before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

I've had times where I've felt an eerie deja-vu feeling where the current moment seemed familiar to me and I had been able to predict something that was about to happen in the next moment (not just a guess, but with a feeling of certainty like I knew it). I've heard that's not an unusual phenomenon. If there is something to that, maybe it is some sort of foreknowledge..

Nightfox

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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Sun May 25 2025 04:25 pm

Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to jimmylogan on Sat May 24 2025 11:21 am

Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made, bef it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility you making any decision which does not result in you eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. Ther is only one possibility, the future that is known.

I've had times where I've felt an eerie deja-vu feeling where the current moment seemed familiar to me and I had been able to predict something that w about to happen in the next moment (not just a guess, but with a feeling of certainty like I knew it). I've heard that's not an unusual phenomenon. If there is something to that, maybe it is some sort of foreknowledge..

I've experienced something similar myself. I've had some experiences which do lead me to think there is more than what we see.

In fact, I suspect that we may have actually lived our lives before, and will live them again.

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Nightfox wrote to jimmylogan <=-

I don't think we should assume angels & demons from the bible and
extraterrestrials are the same thing..

What other explanation? Creatures that 'evolved differently?' This assumes you have the worldview that man evolved and wasn't created...

I just don't know why we'd assume that extraterrestrials are angels & demons. I mean, we humans aren't angels & demons. Why would beings
from another planet be?

And if you believe in evolution, naturally they'd have evolved
differently on another planet. Or if you believe in creation, they'd
be another one of God's creations.

I don't believe in evolution. I believe in God the Creator who
made us. Now, I can't say with certainty that He didn't create
life elsewhere, so anything beyond that is just speculation.

But I firmly believe that if "they" ever show up claiming to
help us reach the "next level of evolution," that will be a lie.

:-)





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Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
choose.

This is a problem that is discussed in physics as well, whether the universe is deterministic and whether a deternistic universe allows
free will.

By deterministic, do you mean that things are set in motion
and will unfold based purely on cause and effect -
no intelligent intervention?

Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
result of my choice - not the cause of it.

It still is reasonable to act as if we have choices, after all, our choices are influenced by what happens to us, but this creates a bit
of a conundrum. If we indeed only have one path, who set that path?

That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
inside time.

So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.

You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
doesn't mean He causes them.

For us mere mortals, we can attribute responsibility to each other, because there is not other candidate. But if a Deity was the first
Prime Mover, then responsibility lies there. Then we have
predestination.

So on that final point, I will respectfully disagree. :-)




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Boraxman wrote to Jcurtis <=-

God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey

Atheist misconception.

I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil
this is why I don't believe

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

People have been saying that for centuries now...

Pardon my skepticism!

That reminded me of this passage:

2 Peter 3:2-4 (KJV) That ye may be mindful of the words which
were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment
of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first,
that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after
their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they
were from the beginning of the creation.

Even the skepticism was foretold. :-)


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DaiTengu wrote to Jcurtis <=-

Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Jcurtis to BORAXMAN on Sat May 24 2025 12:00 pm

I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil this is why I
don't believe

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).

Where would you suggest He start? With you? Or with me? Or with
what YOU call evil?

When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking
God to stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I
don't think anyone really wants that...


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on Sat May 24 2025 01:03 pm

If God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey, and it could not have been otherwise, I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil. Especially since God made us and the universe, and is omnipotent. This circle doesn't square.

I think the way they come to grips with it can be illustrated as follows:

Imagine you know Jack hates John. Imagine you know Jack has a date in the same coffee pub John is gonna be at the same time. Imagine you could prevent Jack easily from going to the pub.

You don't. Jack shows up, finds John there, and bashes him all over his head with a chair.

Now, who is responsible? You, because you could have prevented it and you didn't? Or Jack, who did the deed?


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on Sun May 25 2025 11:02 am

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

People have been saying that for centuries now...

Odin promissed to exterminate the ice giants.

How many ice giants have you seen ravaging the countryside as of late?

We all should be thankful to Odin

\o/


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: DaiTengu to Jcurtis on Sat May 24 2025 10:15 pm

He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).

Oden on the other hand never said he would save the human race from evil. He just said he'd get rid of the frost giants.

Damn, you beat me to it.


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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: jimmylogan to DaiTengu on Tue May 27 2025 08:29 am

He's had thousands of years. God is either incompetent (he's been
unable to stop evil), or malevolent (unwilling to stop evil).

Where would you suggest He start? With you? Or with me? Or with what YOU call evil?

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people on the planet could identify blatant evil if it was presented to them, no matter what their religion is.

most religions have something similar to christianity's "golden rule". the whole "do unto others as you would have them to do to you" (Luke 6:31) has existed longer than any of the abrahamic faiths.

It also fascinates me how so many so-called devout christians tend to ignore this rule.

When people realize that EVERYONE is basically evil, then asking God to stop it means to ask God to wipe out the human race. I don't think anyone really wants that...

meh. I've heard worse ideas.

...Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.

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jimmylogan wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <6835DA59.10033.dove_dove-rel@digitaldistortionbbs.com>
@REPLY: <68313731.8154.dove-rel@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

Boraxman wrote to jimmylogan <=-

Foreknowledge is NOT the say as predestination. If God
DECIDED for us, we would have no choice. But He doesn't
decide for us, but He does KNOW what we are going to
choose.

This is a problem that is discussed in physics as well, whether the universe is deterministic and whether a deternistic universe allows
free will.

By deterministic, do you mean that things are set in motion
and will unfold based purely on cause and effect -
no intelligent intervention?

Correct. I should state that I think the comment argument that we don't have free will doesn't make much sens. We do have some free will, because decisions come from within us. Even of those decisions are based purely on the laws of nature, and could only have gone one way, I still think it counts as free will.

Foreknowledge does mean that your choice is set, before it is made,
before it is considered. If I know that you are going to eat Corn
Flakes for breakfast on the 30th of January, 2027, then it removes the possibility of you making any decision which does not result in you
eating those Corn Flakes. Foreknowledge of every event, removes every possibility. There is only one possibility, the future that is known.

You said: "Foreknowledge removes all other possibilities." But I
see it the other way around. You only know I'll eat Corn Flakes
because I chose to. If I suddenly decide on Raisin Bran instead,
then your foreknowledge would reflect that. Your knowing is a
result of my choice - not the cause of it.

If I know you will have cornflakes, assuming I do have foreknowledge, then you WONT change your mind. Gods foreknowledge cannot be flawed. Your sudden decisions can't happen. Either my foreknowledge is imperfect, and subject to change, or you can't decide anything other than what matches my foreknowledge.

I don't think this means there is no free will, but is does rule out you choosing anything other than eating cornflakes, as well as *every other choice which will preclude you from eating them*.

It still is reasonable to act as if we have choices, after all, our choices are influenced by what happens to us, but this creates a bit
of a conundrum. If we indeed only have one path, who set that path?

That's the key for me. God's foreknowledge doesn't erase our
free will - it just means He already sees the outcome. There's
still a genuine decision being made, from our point of view
inside time.

So when you ask: "If there's only one path, who set it?" I'd say:
no one sets it in the sense of forcing it. It's just that God,
being outside of time, already sees the whole path we'll choose.

You and I don't have this perspective. We live moment by moment.
We don't even know what we'll decide tomorrow (or if we'll even
be here). But just because God knows our future decisions
doesn't mean He causes them.

I sort of agree. The decision is still from within us, it is, technically us. This is why I think the claim we have no free will doesn't quite hold. BUT I also view us having determistic decisions (ie, our decisions are already determined by mechanics from the very start) compatible with the idea that we do
make decisions.

So I agree that you make decisions, I just disagree that your decision path could be changed from that which allows God to have foreknowledge. Computers make decisions, but those decisions are already baked into the software. The computer is just acting based on its input.

For us mere mortals, we can attribute responsibility to each other, because there is not other candidate. But if a Deity was the first
Prime Mover, then responsibility lies there. Then we have
predestination.

So on that final point, I will respectfully disagree. :-)

I understand your explanation, but I consider it immoral. Much in the same way I understant the argument for eternal damnation in hell, but consider it immoral
and beastly. If God is the only one who can meaningfully implement any change, but still burns us for eternity, then he is a monster. But as I think its just a creation of tribal desert Jews, to me, the only thing this reveals is the poor
morality of some Christians.


... BoraxMan
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Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on
Sat May 24 2025 01:03 pm

If God KNEW that Adam and Eve would disobey, and it could not have been otherwise, I find it immoral to still place blame on us and our evil. Especially since God made us and the universe, and is omnipotent. This circle doesn't square.

I think the way they come to grips with it can be illustrated as
follows:

Imagine you know Jack hates John. Imagine you know Jack has a date in
the same coffee pub John is gonna be at the same time. Imagine you
could prevent Jack easily from going to the pub.

You don't. Jack shows up, finds John there, and bashes him all over his head with a chair.

Now, who is responsible? You, because you could have prevented it and
you didn't? Or Jack, who did the deed?

I don't think this addresses the issue. In this example, I'm *guessing* there will be trouble. I don't know what Jack will do, and he could very well have free will. I'm acting on a guess, without *knowing*.

But if I know *exactly* what will happen, and my foreknoweldge is perfect, unchangeable, then that can only be the case if Jack could not possibly have acted any other way. However, if that is the case, and I am a mere mortal, then
I cannot act in any other way either, in a world where foreknoweldge is possible. So whether I would have stopped Jack or not, is already set. The question of whether I am responsible or not is moot, as that question is already
determined too.

I think it is simply that there is a logical paradox in foreknowledge, similar to the Grandfather Paradox. We can only be certain of a future we cannot change. If we could know the future, we could change it, but then the future would be different and we didn't end up knowing it.



... BoraxMan
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Arelor wrote to Boraxman <=-

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Re: Re: Angels and demons
By: Boraxman to Jcurtis on
Sun May 25 2025 11:02 am

Atheism will never stop evil. God will though. As prophesied.

People have been saying that for centuries now...

Odin promissed to exterminate the ice giants.

How many ice giants have you seen ravaging the countryside as of late?

We all should be thankful to Odin

Odin gave an eye for knowledge. I like the pagan Gods more, because they make more sense.


... BoraxMan
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